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Exactly, but if you've been following this thread, there are dozens of posts from people saying, "if they hadn't..." "if she would have..." "why didn't he..." It might be something that "everybody knows", but they'll sure as heck try to rationalize it otherwise.
As the phrase goes, "You can't handle the truth". Or maybe they have things to feel guilty about themselves.
If anyone has ever had a real life face to face debate about this with a person who just doesn't want to get it, you soon realize they are scared of the truth.
The way this thread has played out illustrates one thing that is a problem in how we think and talk about rape, at least according to many of the armchair activists that I know. I'm not sure how ultimately useful it's going to be in "changing the dialog" but we'll see, I suppose.
Can't hurt to try.
So here is the problem. We, everyone, has picked apart the OP's example in examination of the woman, her motivations, the flaws in the scenario, how she might feel afterwards, and 100 other things. We've said it is the rapist's fault. But no one is thinking any further about his role as an active person in the situation. Did he premeditate the whole thing? How did he get a woman to go home with him? Did he tell her friends he was giving her a ride home? Was he drunk, too? Did he drive drunk? Were there other people supposed to be at his house, too, or did she know that she was going, alone, to be alone in the company of a stranger, plus whatever degree of alcohol was involved with either of them? Like how did he even pull this off and what were his intentions? Did he mean to attempt such a thing when he arrived at the bar, or did he just make up a plan on the fly? What led to him thinking that this was ok? Was he confused, or evil, or stupid, or what?
Maybe, if a man does not know he can avoid raping someone when he drinks, he shouldn't drink.
Said no one ever.
Anyhow, I'm just pointing that out. There is a pretty big blind spot in how many people, even those in positions of victim defense and victim advocacy, think about rape, sometimes.
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Originally Posted by PassTheChocolate
If she was roofied, I'd say yes. Because there is no other reason to spike someone's drink unless they want to take advantage of them. The intent is clear. That is a horrible thing to have to wake up to.
I'm not saying it doesn't happen. I'm saying that no evidence does not automatically = rape. We can make reasonable deductions based on the evidence, like in the case you mentioned.
I think there are a lot of cases that go unreported, for the same reasons that have kept women from speaking out about what happened to them 10, 20, 40 years ago until now.
There are also a lot of cases that should never be reported, let alone see the inside of a courtroom, and the reasons are demonstrated all over this thread. People seem to throw the words "rape" and "victim blaming" around like so many dirty socks, with no regard for the consequences.
Thank you for your response. It was important to me, to distinguish where you were coming from. I have seen many, MANY times, where a woman decided she was ready to talk about a rape, and commentors on social media (let alone if it goes viral or becomes a news item) say that if there was no evidence, then there was no rape as far as they are concerned, PERIOD.
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Originally Posted by PassTheChocolate
Considering you also surmised that she was black out drunk, and that someone implied somewhere that one is "entitled to sexually assault" a drunk person, I'm going to advise you to work on your reading skills.
She "somehow gets roofied or something", according to the story. She doesn't know what happened. My response was that if she was roofied, yes, I'd say it was rape. Because there is no other reason to spike someone's drink unless they want to take advantage of them. The intent is clear. Do you understand now? That does not in any way imply that it is only rape if she was roofied. That's just silly.
The roofie makes the difference between it being very obviously premeditated, or a crime of opportunity (in the case of blackout drunk.) The reason I put a roofie into my story, is that I didn't want to muddy what I was trying to determine in asking the question, with "well if she was drunk, then maybe she consented and doesn't remember, etc etc" talk. I wanted to be clear what I was talking about. A rape absolutely happened. There is no evidence. She can't take it to court or get any justice. Should she simply shut up and get over it? What if later she finds out who probably did it, but there is still no solid proof? Like he comes up to her on the street and whispers something vile to her, so she knows but it's still "he said, she said?"
That's the problem, in the world I live in...I know scores of women who have been in some way assaulted. Granted, that's because of the social circles I exist in, where people will actually talk about such things, not your "church social" kinds of places where everything is supposedly all pastel and perfect in the lives of women. But anyways, for whatever reason, actual hard evidence is often very difficult, if not impossible, to come by. And it would seem, that in these cases, there are people who think that the woman should take the secret to her grave. Either you get a criminal conviction on the guy, or you shut your mouth so as not to "ruin his reputation." If there isn't enough evidence for a trial, then there isn't enough for the court of public opinion to go on either.
Which leaves women with not only no justice, but also no support, all to protect her attacker. That sucks.
I do agree with the following statements however:
1. A person should be their own strongest advocate. No one in the world will ever be as obligated to put your interests first, as you yourself are. You can look at that as "blaming" but I prefer to look at that as "empowering." I do accept the EMPOWERING part of doing what I can to keep myself safe, and taking some responsibility for due diligence in that regard.
2. Being a wise person means learning from your mistakes. We are all human. Sometimes we will err. Trust someone we should not have, and be taken advantage of in some fashion. We should do what we can to learn from it, try not to make the same mistake twice if possible. Going back to #1: Empowerment responsibility, not blame responsibility.
Or maybe they have things to feel guilty about themselves.
Like what?
Quote:
If anyone has ever had a real life face to face debate about this with a person who just doesn't want to get it, you soon realize they are scared of the truth.
So here is the problem. We, everyone, has picked apart the OP's example in examination of the woman, her motivations, the flaws in the scenario, how she might feel afterwards, and 100 other things. We've said it is the rapist's fault. But no one is thinking any further about his role as an active person in the situation. Did he premeditate the whole thing? How did he get a woman to go home with him? Did he tell her friends he was giving her a ride home? Was he drunk, too? Did he drive drunk? Were there other people supposed to be at his house, too, or did she know that she was going, alone, to be alone in the company of a stranger, plus whatever degree of alcohol was involved with either of them? Like how did he even pull this off and what were his intentions? Did he mean to attempt such a thing when he arrived at the bar, or did he just make up a plan on the fly? What led to him thinking that this was ok? Was he confused, or evil, or stupid, or what?
Maybe, if a man does not know he can avoid raping someone when he drinks, he shouldn't drink.
Said no one ever.
These are all things I consider and a discussion I've had many times on the varying effects of alcohol, drunk sex and consent. It's not really the focus here but worthy of attention, absolutely.
Quote:
Thank you for your response. It was important to me, to distinguish where you were coming from. I have seen many, MANY times, where a woman decided she was ready to talk about a rape, and commentors on social media (let alone if it goes viral or becomes a news item) say that if there was no evidence, then there was no rape as far as they are concerned, PERIOD.
Quote:
The roofie makes the difference between it being very obviously premeditated, or a crime of opportunity (in the case of blackout drunk.) The reason I put a roofie into my story, is that I didn't want to muddy what I was trying to determine in asking the question, with "well if she was drunk, then maybe she consented and doesn't remember, etc etc" talk. I wanted to be clear what I was talking about. A rape absolutely happened. There is no evidence. She can't take it to court or get any justice. Should she simply shut up and get over it?
I would never presume to tell anyone how to feel or how long it should take to heal. What I would say is that a court ruling doesn't make a rape less real. So her feelings are valid.
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That's the problem, in the world I live in...I know scores of women who have been in some way assaulted. Granted, that's because of the social circles I exist in, where people will actually talk about such things, not your "church social" kinds of places where everything is supposedly all pastel and perfect in the lives of women. But anyways, for whatever reason, actual hard evidence is often very difficult, if not impossible, to come by. And it would seem, that in these cases, there are people who think that the woman should take the secret to her grave. Either you get a criminal conviction on the guy, or you shut your mouth so as not to "ruin his reputation." If there isn't enough evidence for a trial, then there isn't enough for the court of public opinion to go on either.
Which leaves women with not only no justice, but also no support, all to protect her attacker. That sucks.
It does. A good support system is so important in these cases. It makes a huge difference when the system fails.
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I do agree with the following statements however:
1. A person should be their own strongest advocate. No one in the world will ever be as obligated to put your interests first, as you yourself are. You can look at that as "blaming" but I prefer to look at that as "empowering." I do accept the EMPOWERING part of doing what I can to keep myself safe, and taking some responsibility for due diligence in that regard.
2. Being a wise person means learning from your mistakes. We are all human. Sometimes we will err. Trust someone we should not have, and be taken advantage of in some fashion. We should do what we can to learn from it, try not to make the same mistake twice if possible. Going back to #1: Empowerment responsibility, not blame responsibility.
It's not blaming. And don't let anyone convince you it is.
In this discussion, the myth lies with the assertion that reiterating the importance of safety and the consequences of not exercising it is victim blaming.
The OP posts a weird example to use. In real life, it is men one already knows who know already we do not want to have sex with them that drug us so we will.
Bill Cosby, for instance, did not pick up random women in bars to do this to. It was women he knew. Who knew him. To get women he knew did not want to have sex with him to do so.
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Originally Posted by PassTheChocolate
Obviously, the advice wouldn't have helped them. In the case of the OP, it may have. But what's not "real life" about the other 8%? Are you suggesting that it's not worth repeating unless it works for the other 92%?
It's misleading to use "edge cases" as the primary example (without stating such upfront) and then cite innumerable counter-measures that don't really apply to majority of rape cases, but only to the edge cases. Those countermeasures are "common sense" but I wonder how many are actually EFFECTIVE, EVEN for the edge cases. We know them all by rote but we all know what happens when we ASS-U-ME.
It's just too easy for you to glibly give advice on what women should do in post after post...then give a single line where you reluctantly say, yeah that's really only talking about 8% of rapes - but ladies, do keep your knees crossed just in case it works for you.
I have experienced sexual assault by 4 different people. It was violent with two. I'm not trying to compete here, but if one needs to be a rape victim in order to speak on the matter, I'm more than qualified.
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Originally Posted by PassTheChocolate
Because people can't seem to grasp the difference between blaming the victim and examining the contributors. If you don't want to have that conversation with the victim, that's understandable. But it's a huge mistake to not have it at all. Not having it and demonizing and catastrophizing any attempts to discuss exacerbates trauma.
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Originally Posted by reneeh63
Ok..I'll play.
You've been open about having been assaulted not one but four times. For each occasion please list your contributing factors and explain what you did not learn after the first time.
I understand that as a rape advocate and a victim of assault you have a huge amount invested in trying to make women safer. Knock yourself out. Maybe a few less women will be assaulted...but my guess is that pretty much all you've done is shift the women who end up being the victim.
It's like the joke - I don't have to outrun the bear, I just have to outrun YOU! It's certainly true...can't debate that. And at the same time it pits women against other women in an attempt to stay safe...and even more importantly to FEEL safe by doing all the "right" things. Maybe it works in some cases but it doesn't address the real issues and reduce the number of assaults. I'm so glad I haven't yet been a victim...I'm so glad that I outran some other poor woman - eh...she wasn't worthy enough to escape.
And I do still want some answers to your contributing factors since you are he||bent on preaching to others.
One reason that I do talk about "empowerment responsibility" (NOT "blame responsibility") is that in my own case, I find it helpful to my mental health. I am not paranoid, but it feels good to feel situationally aware, to know where exits are, to know who is around me, to feel that I've sorta check the boxes on a few things that make me feel safer. After some of the experiences I've had, it feels like taking my life back in a sense. Do I know full well that I could STILL be victimized? Of course! I don't feel like it makes me infallible or invincible. But it makes me feel better about not only myself, but the world around me, to do certain "empowerment responsibility" things. And to watch out for other women around me, too.
There is a fine line. If one accepts 100% that it is in no way their own fault, that there was NOTHING they could have done to prevent a violation that happened to them, that there is no need for them to learn anything from it since nothing they could have done differently would have ever mattered...that means not only all the blame, but more importantly all the power, is in the hands of my violator. There was nothing I could have done then, means there is nothing I could do ever, and anyone could violate me again at any time. That is a fear I don't want to live with. If accepting a sort of responsibility...not blame, per se, but something...allows me to think, "If I'd done this differently before, that would not have happened, so if I am more careful in the future, maybe that won't happen again" and lets me feel comfortable and safe in my own skin, rather than a helpless victim waiting to happen at any time...
That is the other side of this coin. It is VERY difficult to articulate. It could be compared maybe, with a rape victim going on to learn advanced martial arts. Does that mean that she is to blame for not learning self defense sooner in life? NO. But if doing so later helps her feel stronger and better and helps her move on in life, then no one should say that doing so is just harming the cases of other women who don't bother to learn martial arts, or anything silly like that.
I don't think it's very decent of us to say that a woman SHOULD take any sort of particular responsibility or action or handle her circumstances in a particular way. How a woman (or anyone) copes with a violation of consent, is a personal matter. Telling someone how to react to something intensely damaging and invasive and horrific is really a jerk move, no matter what. I've always taken the position with other survivors, to just be supportive to them, no matter how they are coping.
[i] It's misleading to use "edge cases" as the primary example (without stating such upfront) and then cite innumerable counter-measures that don't really apply to majority of rape cases, but only to the edge cases.
They apply. And while you conveniently throw stats around in a desperate attempt to appear inforned and concerned, can you count? Per those stats, approximately 24,000 "edge cases" PER YEAR is what we're talking here. But don't let details get in the way of creating monsters where they dont exist.
And what "innumerable" counter measures? I've seen a handful, all of which roll up into a very simple, very harmless urging to ALWAYS be proactive in ensuring your safety, even if only a measly 24,000 people PER YEAR are being sexually assaulted.
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Those countermeasures are "common sense" but I wonder how many are actually EFFECTIVE, EVEN for the edge cases. We know them all by rote but we all know what happens when we ASS-U-ME.
If you wonder, you don't actually know. Don't assume one way or the other, mmmkay?
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It's just too easy for you to glibly give advice on what women should do in post after post...then give a single line where you reluctantly say, yeah that's really only talking about 8% of rapes - but ladies, do keep your knees crossed just in case it works for you.
When you're smart enough to speak for me or interpret what I've said, I'll let you know. Your translations throughout this entire thread have been nothing short of disgusting. And you should stop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by reneeh63
I understand that as a rape advocate and a victim of assault you have a huge amount invested in trying to make women safer. Knock yourself out.
Maybe a few less women will be assaulted...
Totally worth it, even if they're just "edge cases" to you.
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but my guess is that pretty much all you've done is shift the women who end up being the victim.
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And at the same time it pits women against other women
You are certainly invested in making this the case.
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Maybe it works in some cases but it doesn't address the real issues and reduce the number of assaults.
Up there you wondered how effective it was. Now you're saying it doesn't reduce the number of assaults. Make up your mind.
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I'm so glad I haven't yet been a victim...I'm so glad that I outran some other poor woman - eh...she wasn't worthy enough to escape.
Douchey
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And I do still want some answers to your contributing factors since you are he||bent on preaching to others.
It's pretty sick to think you can justify asking me how I contributed to my own sexual assaults/rape and what I didnt learn from them by LYING about what I've said and my intentions here. It's sadistic. Do hold your breath and wait for a response, as long as it takes so you never get to do that to anyone else.
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