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Old 12-18-2017, 06:45 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbgusa View Post
Exactly 45 years ago, on December 15, 1972 (also a Friday) I was a 15 year old high school sophomore. I came home from school that icy day, hoping that the Holiday concert I was due to perform in wasn't going to be snowed or iced out.

My father had had a rectal cancer resected in late August 1971. After a promising start he began developing pains in July 1972. He had a liver scan and his doctor flat-out lied to him about the results; they told him it was "clear." While he had his good days, many days were increasingly painful by October. My doctor said he told my mother the outlook and at some level I think he was telling me the truth. When he gave my mother a surprise party on November 7, 1972, her 40th birthday, I think she was pretty sure it was near the end, though he still went to work in NYC every day.

He had another liver scan on November 24, the day after Thanksgiving. His doctor told my mother that he was close to death, though that day he felt well enough we even talked about his returning to the ski slopes that winter. His last day of work was December 8; he was checked into New Rochelle Hospital on December 11, a Monday. One of the doctors there told my mother "don't you think it's time you told your son"?

When I came home she tried to be indirect. It didn't work, since I knew from my reading at the library what the real outlook for his disease was. I insisted on calling his doctor, since teh lack of candor seriously bothered me. He told me he had told her in October, but that he knew from before the 1971 operation my father was finished. I called my cousin in another state, who confirmed that I had read the literature correctly. That night, since my mother didn't feel up to driving, I took a cab to the High School to play at the concert. It was too icy to bike the six or so miles.

I wanted to tell my father what his fate was to be. My mother would not permit me to do that. my father died on January 5, 1973, exactly four weeks later.

The question I throw out there is, in that kind of situation, when should a son or daughter know what's going on? I did my own reading and came to my own conclusion. Thoughts?
I don't have children. That said:

I don't believe in lying to children , but it should be kept age appropriate.

By the time you were in high school, you should have been told the truth, if not before. I don't know how a parent can possibly cover up a parents death, the funeral and the fact that "Daddy or mommy isn't coming back ".

In my own case my mother had multiple sclerosis, and never told me until it was really too late in high school. By then I knew she got worse every day, and from age 9 I was already doing her job in running the house, and by the time I was 13 she was permanently in a wheelchair. Like I didn't know or didn't notice this!!! I actually did nit expect she'd see me graduate.

When I had a new friend or girlfriend over, my mother always asked if I warned them my mother was in a wheelchair, but if they asked why, I hd no answer!!

So being honest with children is paramount in these difficult times.

This isn't about Santa Clause or the Easter bunny, this is a life that impact their lives too.

Be honest and be age appropriate. Perhaps " daddy is very sick " will work to age 8-10, but by then they notice what's going on and should be told the truth.

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Old 12-18-2017, 07:12 AM
 
Location: New York Area
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Quote:
Originally Posted by galaxyhi View Post
I don't have children. That said:

I don't believe in lying to children , but it should be kept age appropriate.

By the time you were in high school, you should have been told the truth, if not before. I don't know how a parent can possibly cover up a parents death, the funeral and the fact that "Daddy or mommy isn't coming back ".
I was told of the operation, and saw the recurring illness with my own eyes. The description of the outlook was a lie until exactly three weeks before he died. And my father was never told.
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Old 12-18-2017, 07:42 AM
 
Location: On the Beach
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A child should never be lied to, or have the truth withheld about something like this. My mother died of cancer when I was 8 years old. It was a very long and brutal battle and, although she could not get out of bed for months, had ascites that had her stomach so swollen that it was truly a terrifying thing for a young child to see, no one would acknowledge that my mother was dying. This was in the 60s when medicine was not so effective at controlling pain. There was no hospice. My father waited until the day before she died, when he was taking her to the hospital for the last time to tell me and one of my brothers. I'm sure he thought it best to "protect" us from the truth for as long as possible but, for us all it accomplished was months of intense pain and worry that my mother was dying, and no one would tell me. A child, no matter how young can understand what is going on. Keeping them in the dark only makes it a dark secret to keep.
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Old 12-18-2017, 02:29 PM
 
Location: City of the Angels
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DutchessCottonPuff View Post
Nick , I am shocked and beyond sorry , even though we are usually not on the same threads I have read your posts many times.

in 1971 I was 9 and had recently lost my nanny who raised me from day one . She died on Valentines day of that year of ovarian cancer. She would NOT tell mom what was wrong . I am not sure what happened but some crisis finally occured and mom took her to HER Dr. she was diagnosed as terminal and never made it out of the hospital technicaly dying from sepsis. I waited a MONTH and finally asked when am I going back to Annie Mae's house ?? I had never been without her so long in my life and suddenly mom jus burst ito tears ant told me she died . It was a friday night for me too I was eating dinner and watching Alias Smith& Jones and nealy fainted whe she told me . I still can't believe it some days . I miss her like crazy and hope maybe I'll see her again in the cosmos .
Things really were different back then .

As for me , I have told both my husband and my daughter still left at home that I do NOT want to know if I am terminal . Ever. Keep me comfortable and treat me if I can spend some more time with you all but I do NOT want to know , especially from a young person.
Linda McCartney told Paul the same and he respected her wishes but told the (grown) kids in his own time before she passed .
Everyone is different . I am a worrier and I would worry myself away before anything else could kill me . It's ok if he tells the family I am sick or very sick , but for some reason I need that part of my life to stay private. I'm sorry for the loss of your dad so young ( for both of you ) and under those circumstances.

.

No worries ! I feel your loss and know the mental anguish that grief causes about loved ones. I wish you to find the solace and peace in battling what I can only call "dancing with the devil".


Although this thread is not about me, I have had so many so many people get back to me and extend their deepest wishes of concern that I felt that I needed to come back and make a progress report.
Luckily, it's ironic to use that word when discussing cancer, I chose the surgical option and had the surgeon remove the lower 1/3 of my right lung where the 5 C.M. by 8 C.M. mass was.
After many complications caused by an air leak making them to have to go back in with a second incision to sew up the bronchial tube where it was leaking, I was able to go home 10 days after my initial estimated 48 hour surgery was done.

I'm ambulatory now without a walker or cane, am doing my rehabilitation deep breathing exercises to expand my right lung and am able to walk about a 1/4 mile before getting weak.
I am also talking protein powder and GNC's Nugenix as supplements as I feel that they help with my recuperative recovery time after stressing the body out with exercise.
I was into weight lifting, bicycling and walking before my surgery which the Doctor said helped a lot since the body then sensed that the surgery was just another extreme muscular stress workout and didn't go into shock which helps recovery a lot.
I start chemo after the 27th of December to get any microscopic molecules of cancer that may still exist.
Right now the only discomfort I feel is where the 30 staples were removed from the incisions and the stiches from where the drain tube was removed from which I can only describe as feeling like road rash.
It turns out that this was discovered early enough to where they were able to nip this in the bud.
This cancerous mass was discovered after I had to go in to get an x-ray after developing pneumonia from a summer cold. Otherwise it would still be sitting there growing undetected.
Personally, I feel that it should almost be mandatory that an lung x-ray be taken after age 50, just like a colonoscopy or sigmoidoscopy are.
Thanks again to all, Happy Holidays, and I would like to redirect this thread back to the original poster that I hijacked it from.

Last edited by NickofDiamonds; 12-18-2017 at 02:48 PM..
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Old 12-18-2017, 06:16 PM
 
Location: New York Area
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NickofDiamonds View Post
Personally, I feel that it should almost be mandatory that an lung x-ray be taken after age 50, just like a colonoscopy or sigmoidoscopy are.
Thanks again to all, Happy Holidays, and I would like to redirect this thread back to the original poster that I hijacked it from.
I will give a Jewish M'sheberach or prayer for healing. Yours was not a hijack; terminal illnesses need to be discussed. My father's situation from 45 years ago was an intro to the topic but do no means do I want the limelight on this.

My best wishes to you. With any luck you'll be with us many years and not just five to give the statisticians something to write about.
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Old 12-20-2017, 03:52 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbgusa View Post
I was told of the operation, and saw the recurring illness with my own eyes. The description of the outlook was a lie until exactly three weeks before he died. And my father was never told.
You're probably explaining for clarity by now, but in case you're not -- think of things this way... wrong or right, your mom did the best she could with the tools she had.


Hugs....
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Old 12-20-2017, 07:59 PM
 
Location: colorado springs, CO
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Hi, OP. I mean this in a complimentary way; you must have been a very interesting child to parent.

I hope you don't mind but there is a lot of information in this thread & I was afraid of repetition, on my part, so I tried to piece together a timeline of sorts. There may be a few unintentional discrepancies:

1. 1954(?): Mom attends college & has a BF: "Harvey". Rejects him after they graduated.

2. 1955-57: Mom & Dad marry; you are born.

3. Late 1950's: "Harvey" writes Mom, wanting to reconnect & offers to adopt you.

4. 1960's: Dad invites "Harvey" over, he declines.

5. May 2, 1970: Your Bar Mitzvah.

6. Summer 1971: Dad is diagnosed with rectal cancer while you are at sleep-away camp: Mah-Kee-Nac at Adventurers in Queens.

7. 1970-1971: You are in the 9th grade. You are 14. Unfortunate introduction to a kid named Charlie.

8. August 1971: On way home from camp, mom tells you about the upcoming operation but you had to ask "is this cancer."

9. Late August 1971: Dad has Resection surgery for rectal cancer.

10. September 1971-January 1972: You start to educated yourself, at Scarsdale Public Library. You have started the 10th grade, with another unfortunate introduction; to Kenneth.

11. February 1972: Vacation with family in Barbados, speak with a doctor you meet there, regarding Dad's diagnosis & he tells you that there was no way of "getting it all" in an operation for that kind of cancer.

12. April 25, 1972: Ed's (your future stepfather) wife Barbara dies. You are turning 15?

13. July 1972: Dad is developing pains in July 1972 & has a liver scan. He is lied to about the results & told the pain is from a scar vs the metastasis. He asks "are you telling me everything". Harvey is lurking around again?

" I wanted the diagnosis from my doctor to be shared when he had the information. He was part of the lie in July 1972 about the scan being clear."

14. October, 1972: Played tennis with Dad.

"I played tennis with my father as late as early October. If he had been receiving likely futile treatment that would have been impossible."

15. November 7, 1972: Surprise party for Mom's 40th birthday party. Dad tells friend "I'm fading fast."

" ... 14 years later he told me that he thought my father "knew" ..."

16. November 11 or 12, 1972: Conversation with Ed (eventual stepfather) during chance meeting, regarding a daughter.

17. November 24, 1972: Day after Thanksgiving. Liver scan shows further metastasis but Dad is told result is an "inflamed liver".

"He could have sold his interior architecture business for at least some money to a competitor, and used his remaining time to transition the clients to a new firm; and 2) Aspirin was extremely effective as pain relief. He didn't get permission to take the pills more often or increase the dose until just before he went in the hospital. He could have used the inexpensive and safe pain relief."

18. December 8, 1972: Dad's last day of work.

19. December 11, 1972: Dad checked into New Rochelle Hospital

20. December 13, 1972: Visit Dad in hospital, Jaundice noted.

21. December 15, 1972: Holiday concert. Mom admits to Dad's prognosis & tells you "she really loved my father". You wanted to call his doctor.

"My reaction to the "news," in fact was "tell me something I don't already know," or words to that effect."

" I told her exactly what I planned on doing; i.e. tell my father."


"At some point life has to go on and I would not have considered getting back together with Harvey a bad thing if it was only when my father's death was both inevitable and imminent."

22. December 17, 1972: Holiday Concert outside Scarsdale Village Hall (17°, strong wind and tuba valve froze).

23. January 5, 1973: Dad died.

24. January 7, 1973: Funeral? Shiva period canceled.

"She told a few of her "friends." One of them, "Lenny" made a crack about it at the Shiva (Jewish mourning period), calling her a "merry widow." I asked my mother about the crack. She told me the story."

25. Monday, January 8, 1973: Back to school.

25. Mid-January 1973: You ask Mom to pursue Harvey but your mom reveals his issues with mental illness.

"While I had a pretty good relationship with my mother, I did not want her as my only parent for any length of time."

26. Monday night in February 1973: Mother met Ed at the bank.

Valentines Day, Saturday, Feb 14, 1973: Mom & Ed's first date.

27. April, 1973: You turn 16. Ed teaches you how to drive.

"Janet, Bill (his son) and I, and I understand his other daughter Debbie as well pretty much demanded that they marry."

28. November 1973: You get DL & father's car.

29. June 1974: Ed & Mom marry.

30. 1991:You get married.

31. 1995-1998: Your 2 children are born.

32. September 2013: Had to take away the car keys from Mom, due to Dementia.

33. 2013: Ed dies.

34. 2014: Mother dies


You asked: "When Should a Parent Tell Their Offspring The Other Parent is Fatally Ill?" Yet; you do have your own answer:

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbgusa View Post
All children, I believe, need to be told as things are happening but told in different ways. For most people, from 13 on up you should "let it rip" and tell them on a current basis. Younger than that the children probably need to be told in a different manner. For the really young, six or seven and under, perhaps tell them that the person "went to sleep and didn't wake up," and maybe remind them that the person was really tired lately. Or that their heart, stomach, fill in the blank, stopped working.
And certainly, most posters here have agreed with you. I mean; I agree with you, too. I just get this feeling ... like something has been left unanswered.

I find this to be a highly relevant statement: ... "The quality of my questions, lawyer-like even in those days when I was 15 ..."

Is it at all possible; that you are unintentionally asking this question, also; in a lawyer-like manner? Are you leading the reader somewhere else? Remember, I said your writing was almost hypnotic & I would "see" a glimpse of you in the story. This memory is so sweet & it's one of those:

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbgusa View Post
The "sort of" funny thing was that the big hit on the radio at that time was "Take Me Home, Country Roads." One of the lyrics of that song is "driving down the road I got the feeling that I should have been home yesterday, yesterday." Thoughts on the link between music and life posted here, Songs That Haunt and Bring Strong Memories.
And that happened on your way home from camp; when your mom told you about your dad's upcoming surgery. I can see you thinking:

"I should have been home yesterday ... I was being a kid; doing kid stuff & I go to camp & this is what happens?"

And you ... knew ..., that moment, somehow, you knew. Your mom, I would imagine was shocked when you asked "Is this cancer". How many 14-year-old kids do that?

She was probably trying to give herself a pep talk the entire time you were gone " I don't want to do this. I have to do this. I'm the parent & it's my job but if I say cancer? I can't say cancer ... I'll say operation ...he can't handle ... cancer". It makes me wonder if she told your dad "Just let me do this; let me talk to him ... I know how he is". Did your dad & you ever talk about his condition in front of her? I sort of see her doing this with almost everybody "Don't say anything; you don't know how he/they are. Let me do this; it's my job".

Trying to control the uncontrollable. Meanwhile; you are taking off on your bike to go to the library. Maybe you ask questions? "What did the doctor say?" "Did they do any tests?" At any rate; you know enough at age 15 to have an articulate discussion with a doctor about your dad's condition.

How many 15-year-old kids do that? Although it's hard for me to play the devil's advocate & get inside your mom's head?

I'm still a mom. I have seven sons & if one of them were stepping up in this manner when I was trying to be the parent & control things? I can see myself feeling a little threatened. Women can feel a lot of pressure when they are active in ethnic & religious communities. There is a sense of being watched. And even judged. It would be one thing for a woman to consider as a potential 65-year-old widow. A different matter for one just turning 40.

It's still okay for you to feel how you do about how she controlled things; it was still wrong. It must have been frustrating, at age 15 to be the one thinking:

"What about the business? The accounts? The clients? What does this mean for his care? What about pain? Is this expensive? Why isn't anybody doing anything?" And then; there is this:

"While I had a pretty good relationship with my mother, I did not want her as my only parent for any length of time."

Obviously. Without your dad there; she would be focusing on ... you. Is that why you considered Harvey while keeping Ed in mind too? Your mom was likely thinking "What are people going to think? My son ... he keeps asking about my crazy ex-BF. And now Ed? I knew I shouldn't have said anything. I knew it all along; he's got to be in control ... he's driving me crazy".

And there you were: "I have to figure out what to do with Mom! She's always got to be in control & I know what will happen if it's just me ... She's going to drive me crazy".

Sorry; long post & not much good for answers! Just thoughts.
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Old 12-20-2017, 10:42 PM
 
Location: New York Area
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Quite impressive. Did you read my other posts from around the forum. It's quite OK with me if you did but I was just wondering. You got a few things wrong, but not many. I'm quite impressed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by coschristi View Post
Hi, OP. I mean this in a complimentary way; you must have been a very interesting child to parent.
Probably was.

Quote:
Originally Posted by coschristi View Post
I hope you don't mind but there is a lot of information in this thread & I was afraid of repetition, on my part, so I tried to piece together a timeline of sorts. There may be a few unintentional discrepancies:

1. 1954(?): Mom attends college & has a BF: "Harvey". Rejects him after they graduated.

2. 1955-57: Mom & Dad marry; you are born.

3. Late 1950's: "Harvey" writes Mom, wanting to reconnect & offers to adopt you.

4. 1960's: Dad invites "Harvey" over, he declines.

5. May 2, 1970: Your Bar Mitzvah.
Right so far.

Quote:
Originally Posted by coschristi View Post
6. Summer 1971: Dad is diagnosed with rectal cancer while you are at sleep-away camp: Mah-Kee-Nac at Adventurers in Queens.
Mah-Kee-Nac is in Stockbridge, Massachusetts, in the Berkshires. Camp bus returned us to Adventurers in Queens, by the side of the Whitestone Expressway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by coschristi View Post
7. 1970-1971: You are in the 9th grade. You are 14. Unfortunate introduction to a kid named Charlie.
Right except it was 1971-2. Charlie, by the way, unlamentedly dies in 2012 or 2013. Good riddance to bad rubbish.

Quote:
Originally Posted by coschristi View Post
8. August 1971: On way home from camp, mom tells you about the upcoming operation but you had to ask "is this cancer."

9. Late August 1971: Dad has Resection surgery for rectal cancer.

10. September 1971-January 1972: You start to educated yourself, at Scarsdale Public Library. You have started the 10th grade, with another unfortunate introduction; to Kenneth.

11. February 1972: Vacation with family in Barbados, speak with a doctor you meet there, regarding Dad's diagnosis & he tells you that there was no way of "getting it all" in an operation for that kind of cancer.
Quite correct. You're on a roll.

Quote:
Originally Posted by coschristi View Post
12. April 25, 1972: Ed's (your future stepfather) wife Barbara dies. You are turning 15?
Correct. I turned 15 that month. I had met Ed once; Janet had been with me in school from September 1964 on, and was at my May 2, 1970 Bar Mitzvah.

Quote:
Originally Posted by coschristi View Post
13. July 1972: Dad is developing pains in July 1972 & has a liver scan. He is lied to about the results & told the pain is from a scar vs the metastasis. He asks "are you telling me everything". Harvey is lurking around again?
Basically right. The embolism scar lie and a related lie about shoulder pain being tendonitis was in October 1972.

Quote:
Originally Posted by coschristi View Post
" I wanted the diagnosis from my doctor to be shared when he had the information. He was part of the lie in July 1972 about the scan being clear."
That was post hoc reasoning from when I finally found out in December 1972.

Quote:
Originally Posted by coschristi View Post
14. October, 1972: Played tennis with Dad.

"I played tennis with my father as late as early October. If he had been receiving likely futile treatment that would have been impossible."
We had played often. That was the last time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by coschristi View Post
15. November 7, 1972: Surprise party for Mom's 40th birthday party. Dad tells friend "I'm fading fast."

" ... 14 years later he told me that he thought my father "knew" ..."
That was what the friend told me both that January and in 1986 when I represented him as an attorney, collecting his unpaid patient receivables.

Quote:
Originally Posted by coschristi View Post
16. November 11 or 12, 1972: Conversation with Ed (eventual stepfather) during chance meeting, regarding a daughter.
Right. On bicycle path near his house.

Quote:
Originally Posted by coschristi View Post
17. November 24, 1972: Day after Thanksgiving. Liver scan shows further metastasis but Dad is told result is an "inflamed liver".
Yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by coschristi View Post
"He could have sold his interior architecture business for at least some money to a competitor, and used his remaining time to transition the clients to a new firm; and 2) Aspirin was extremely effective as pain relief. He didn't get permission to take the pills more often or increase the dose until just before he went in the hospital. He could have used the inexpensive and safe pain relief."
Yes. We sold it to the competitor after he died but without him around to transition the clients the sale didn't work out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by coschristi View Post
18. December 8, 1972: Dad's last day of work.

19. December 11, 1972: Dad checked into New Rochelle Hospital

20. December 13, 1972: Visit Dad in hospital, Jaundice noted.
The jaundice developed earlier but was really bad by then.

Quote:
Originally Posted by coschristi View Post
21. December 15, 1972: Holiday concert. Mom admits to Dad's prognosis & tells you "she really loved my father". You wanted to call his doctor.

"My reaction to the "news," in fact was "tell me something I don't already know," or words to that effect."

" I told her exactly what I planned on doing; i.e. tell my father."


"At some point life has to go on and I would not have considered getting back together with Harvey a bad thing if it was only when my father's death was both inevitable and imminent."

22. December 17, 1972: Holiday Concert outside Scarsdale Village Hall (17°, strong wind and tuba valve froze).

23. January 5, 1973: Dad died.

24. January 7, 1973: Funeral? Shiva period canceled.

"She told a few of her "friends." One of them, "Lenny" made a crack about it at the Shiva (Jewish mourning period), calling her a "merry widow." I asked my mother about the crack. She told me the story."

25. Monday, January 8, 1973: Back to school.

25. Mid-January 1973: You ask Mom to pursue Harvey but your mom reveals his issues with mental illness.
Got that right. But what I said was "you should date."

"While I had a pretty good relationship with my mother, I did not want her as my only parent for any length of time."

Quote:
Originally Posted by coschristi View Post
26. Monday night in February 1973: Mother met Ed at the bank.

Valentines Day, Saturday, Feb 14, 1973: Mom & Ed's first date.

27. April, 1973: You turn 16. Ed teaches you how to drive.

"Janet, Bill (his son) and I, and I understand his other daughter Debbie as well pretty much demanded that they marry."

28. November 1973: You get DL & father's car.

29. June 1974: Ed & Mom marry.

30. 1991:You get married.

31. 1995-1998: Your 2 children are born.
Right but younger son born in August 1997.

Quote:
Originally Posted by coschristi View Post
32. September 2013: Had to take away the car keys from Mom, due to Dementia.

33. 2013: Ed dies.

34. 2014: Mother dies
You got all that right.


Quote:
Originally Posted by coschristi View Post
You asked: "When Should a Parent Tell Their Offspring The Other Parent is Fatally Ill?" Yet; you do have your own answer:



And certainly, most posters here have agreed with you. I mean; I agree with you, too. I just get this feeling ... like something has been left unanswered.
True. Ask me any unanswered questions. I'll answer either here or if appropriate by DM.

Quote:
Originally Posted by coschristi View Post
I find this to be a highly relevant statement: ... "The quality of my questions, lawyer-like even in those days when I was 15 ..."

Is it at all possible; that you are unintentionally asking this question, also; in a lawyer-like manner? Are you leading the reader somewhere else? Remember, I said your writing was almost hypnotic & I would "see" a glimpse of you in the story.
I am Jewish. That's in our DNA. The joke is "if you have two Jews in a room you get three opinions." Or "someone finds two Jews on a desert island, and three synagogues. When asked, one of them says, "there's my synagogue, his synagogue and the third one used to be both ours but no one will set foot in it again."

Quote:
Originally Posted by coschristi View Post
This memory is so sweet & it's one of those:



And that happened on your way home from camp; when your mom told you about your dad's upcoming surgery. I can see you thinking:

"I should have been home yesterday ... I was being a kid; doing kid stuff & I go to camp & this is what happens?"
The song, "Take me Home Country Roads" was a hit and you couldn't turn on the radio without hearing it. It was haunting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by coschristi View Post
And you ... knew ..., that moment, somehow, you knew. Your mom, I would imagine was shocked when you asked "Is this cancer". How many 14-year-old kids do that?
I may be stupid but I do know how to read and write.

[quote=coschristi;50459397]She was probably trying to give herself a pep talk the entire time you were gone " I don't want to do this. I have to do this. I'm the parent & it's my job but if I say cancer? I can't say cancer ... I'll say operation ...he can't handle ... cancer". It makes me wonder if she told your dad "Just let me do this; let me talk to him ... I know how he is". Did your dad & you ever talk about his condition in front of her? I sort of see her doing this with almost everybody "Don't say anything; you don't know how he/they are. Let me do this; it's my job".[/qutoe]We talked quite a bit, especially when it seemed to have been licked.

Quote:
Originally Posted by coschristi View Post
Trying to control the uncontrollable. Meanwhile; you are taking off on your bike to go to the library. Maybe you ask questions? "What did the doctor say?" "Did they do any tests?" At any rate; you know enough at age 15 to have an articulate discussion with a doctor about your dad's condition.

How many 15-year-old kids do that?
In my neck of the woods, plenty do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by coschristi View Post
Although it's hard for me to play the devil's advocate & get inside your mom's head?
That would be hard to do. My mom had a "unique" personality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by coschristi View Post
I'm still a mom. I have seven sons & if one of them were stepping up in this manner when I was trying to be the parent & control things? I can see myself feeling a little threatened. Women can feel a lot of pressure when they are active in ethnic & religious communities. There is a sense of being watched. And even judged. It would be one thing for a woman to consider as a potential 65-year-old widow. A different matter for one just turning 40.

It's still okay for you to feel how you do about how she controlled things; it was still wrong. It must have been frustrating, at age 15 to be the one thinking:

"What about the business? The accounts? The clients? What does this mean for his care? What about pain? Is this expensive? Why isn't anybody doing anything?"
I went with my father to the job sites pretty often and I pretty much knew everything. If there were lots of children, as you had, they may not know so much.
Quote:
Originally Posted by coschristi View Post
And then; there is this:

"While I had a pretty good relationship with my mother, I did not want her as my only parent for any length of time."

Obviously. Without your dad there; she would be focusing on ... you. Is that why you considered Harvey while keeping Ed in mind too? Your mom was likely thinking "What are people going to think? My son ... he keeps asking about my crazy ex-BF. And now Ed? I knew I shouldn't have said anything. I knew it all along; he's got to be in control ... he's driving me crazy".

And there you were: "I have to figure out what to do with Mom! She's always got to be in control & I know what will happen if it's just me ... She's going to drive me crazy".

Sorry; long post & not much good for answers! Just thoughts.
The problem was that my mother was feeling oh so sorry for herself at that time. Basically, both she and Ed had lives to resume.

The Jewish religion (I am not religious but I am active) has some fairly strict deadlines on the starting and stopping of mourning, and the resumption of productive life. The Jews are a successful people because we don't believe in lengthy mourning periods and self-pity.

And by the way you got one thing wrong; most of the bike rides were to school, a six mile ride each way, and to evening entertainment at the school and the YMHA.
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Old 12-27-2017, 07:10 PM
 
Location: colorado springs, CO
8,008 posts, read 3,716,625 times
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Originally Posted by jbgusa View Post
Quite impressive. Did you read my other posts from around the forum. It's quite OK with me if you did but I was just wondering. You got a few things wrong, but not many. I'm quite impressed.
I did. I read many of your posts, both those from the links you provided & many, many more.

I sort of figured that might be apparent to you & I was worried that you might think it was intrusive but I wanted to be sure I had the facts straight.

I would have read even more but the "find posts by:" option only gives you the last 1 year of posts. I read very fast & although my comprehension rate is very high (last time tested), I worry that I might blow right past something important.

I was afraid that you would be upset & that's why I didn't look for your reply until today.


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Originally Posted by jbgusa View Post
Right so far.

Mah-Kee-Nac is in Stockbridge, Massachusetts, in the Berkshires. Camp bus returned us to Adventurers in Queens, by the side of the Whitestone Expressway.

Right except it was 1971-2. Charlie, by the way, unlamentedly dies in 2012 or 2013. Good riddance to bad rubbish.

Quite correct. You're on a roll.

Correct. I turned 15 that month. I had met Ed once; Janet had been with me in school from September 1964 on, and was at my May 2, 1970 Bar Mitzvah.

Basically right. The embolism scar lie and a related lie about shoulder pain being tendonitis was in October 1972.

That was post hoc reasoning from when I finally found out in December 1972.

We had played often. That was the last time.

That was what the friend told me both that January and in 1986 when I represented him as an attorney, collecting his unpaid patient receivables.

Right. On bicycle path near his house.

Yes.
Good. There were a few items in that part I wasn't sure about.

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Originally Posted by jbgusa View Post
Yes. We sold it to the competitor after he died but without him around to transition the clients the sale didn't work out.
I am sorry. That would be hard, I think, because I'm sure your dad worked very hard to establish himself with those clients.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbgusa View Post
The jaundice developed earlier but was really bad by then.

Got that right. But what I said was "you should date."

Right but younger son born in August 1997.
That part of the timeline was not referenced as much in your posts. I did have to use a little math & I'm a bit better with words than I am numbers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbgusa View Post
The song, "Take me Home Country Roads" was a hit and you couldn't turn on the radio without hearing it. It was haunting.
I know it well although it was a little bit before my time. My grandmother had one of those player-pianos & my uncle had several John Denver scrolls. I used to spend hours belting out both this song & one called "Annie's Song" (I think). They had renters at this time; I'm sure they were thrilled!

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbgusa View Post
In my neck of the woods, plenty do. That would be hard to do. My mom had a "unique" personality.
Heh; I was going to use the word "strong" & then decided I should leave it up to you to define. I had a mother with a "strong" personality but "unique" would have worked too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbgusa View Post
True. Ask me any unanswered questions. I'll answer either here or if appropriate by DM.
Well; I do wonder if you ever got any answers. I know you were validated but that's not always the same thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbgusa View Post
I am Jewish. That's in our DNA. The joke is "if you have two Jews in a room you get three opinions." Or "someone finds two Jews on a desert island, and three synagogues. When asked, one of them says, "there's my synagogue, his synagogue and the third one used to be both ours but no one will set foot in it again."
I went with my father to the job sites pretty often and I pretty much knew everything. If there were lots of children, as you had, they may not know so much. The problem was that my mother was feeling oh so sorry for herself at that time. Basically, both she and Ed had lives to resume.

The Jewish religion (I am not religious but I am active) has some fairly strict deadlines on the starting and stopping of mourning, and the resumption of productive life. The Jews are a successful people because we don't believe in lengthy mourning periods and self-pity.

And by the way you got one thing wrong; most of the bike rides were to school, a six mile ride each way, and to evening entertainment at the school and the YMHA.
I was intrigued by your OP for several different reasons & one of them was the theme of the "Jewish Perspective".

I spent a good part of last year trying to research the history & had a difficult time. It started out innocently enough; I was curious about an inheritable though recessive physical trait that I have & it took me very quickly into what felt like forbidden territory.

There is not a large Jewish population or community in my area & my only exposure was as a young teenager when my mother (Greek Orthodox converted to Catholic) inexplicably obtained permission from both congregations & took my Catholic catechism class ... to Synagogue.

I hope you still go on bike rides. I think you thrived on their natural rhythm & I think they hold a special significance in your timeline. Are those paths still there, where you rode so long ago? Even for a stroll?
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Old 12-27-2017, 08:05 PM
 
Location: New York Area
22,119 posts, read 8,741,414 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coschristi View Post

I was afraid that you would be upset & that's why I didn't look for your reply until today.

**************I was intrigued by your OP for several different reasons & one of them was the theme of the "Jewish Perspective".

I spent a good part of last year trying to research the history & had a difficult time. It started out innocently enough; I was curious about an inheritable though recessive physical trait that I have & it took me very quickly into what felt like forbidden territory.

There is not a large Jewish population or community in my area & my only exposure was as a young teenager when my mother (Greek Orthodox converted to Catholic) inexplicably obtained permission from both congregations & took my Catholic catechism class ... to Synagogue.

I hope you still go on bike rides. I think you thrived on their natural rhythm & I think they hold a special significance in your timeline. Are those paths still there, where you rode so long ago? Even for a stroll?
Not upset at all; check your DM box.
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