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Question: Can one be friends (i.e., treat as an equal) someone who doesn't understand the distinction between "your" and "you're" or spells threw as "through." I don't think I can. I have a "friend" who's prose is full of these errors and it's like so many wounds. This is not a stupid person, it's just someone who doesn't care (or notice?) about the language. And one wonders, what other glaring errors are integral to their mentality?
Maybe it's a class issue; we don't like to talk about class in the US, but it exists. And I think that the biggest tell, when it comes to use of language, are just those words that everyone who doesn't care, spells incorrectly. Common sense would suggest that, if you want to do the best you can with respect to developing yourself intellectually, the best way is to learn how to use the language effectively.
Other "tells" include the following (please see, below). My guess is that linguists use these errors to analyze writers.
• Confusion of affect and effect
• Writing single digit numbers as numbers, rather than words
• Misplacement of quotation marks
• Subject/verb disagreement
Of course, the issue is, why is this important. And it is important because, fair or not, we are judged by how we look and how we use language. This is not to suggest my own writing is free of error, because it isn't. There are mistakes I consistently make and never remember to do the correct usage. But the distinction is, if my error is pointed out, I'm grateful rather than resentful.
I'm an editor, and if I judged people by their grammar and usage mistakes I would have NO friends.
It's pedantic to insist that people spit out flawless prose 24/7 and fruitless to expect it.
Yes, but in terms of friendship, isn't friendship based on equality and common interests? Can you really be friends with someone when those things are too divergent?
Yes, but in terms of friendship, isn't friendship based on equality and common interests? Can you really be friends with someone when those things are too divergent?
If grammar knowledge is one of the cornerstone personality characteristics you require of a friend, then obviously the answer for you is no.
I have learned over my 50 years that people can be intelligent and caring and worth knowing even if they occasionally drop an apostrophe.
I will say, though, that there is a reason grammar Nazism isn't allowed on City Data ... it isn't relevant to the majority of discussions here and tends to be a personal attack. Most people do not appreciate personal attacks.
If grammar knowledge is one of the cornerstone personality characteristics you require of a friend, then obviously the answer for you is no.
I have learned over my 50 years that people can be intelligent and caring and worth knowing even if they occasionally drop an apostrophe.
I will say, though, that there is a reason grammar Nazism isn't allowed on City Data ... it isn't relevant to the majority of discussions here and tends to be a personal attack. Most people do not appreciate personal attacks.
It won't be perceived as a personal attack if we stay on topic, which is, can you be friends with someone who has a different perspective on the issue. No one is being attacked personally. Let's stay on topic.
I will say that as a Jewish person, I sort of feel uncomfortable reading Nazism in this context; that is a very disturbing and inaccurate analogy.
It won't be perceived as a personal attack if we stay on topic, which is, can you be friends with someone who has a different perspective on the issue. No one is being attacked personally. Let's stay on topic.
I'm not talking about this thread LOL.
I'm talking about in general. When people are discussing something and someone who perceives him/herself as the grammar police, it hijacks the discussion and creates ill feelings.
I addressed your point about whether you can be friends. People who have poor or careless grammar don't usually have a "perspective" on the issue of grammar, and that is the primary difference.
If grammar is THAT important to someone, then no, that friendship would not work. In my experience, even though grammar is important to me it is not a dealbreaker because I understand that "time and place" matter. If their error kept me from understanding them, we'd have a problem.
I'm an editor, and if I judged people by their grammar and usage mistakes I would have NO friends.
It's pedantic to insist that people spit out flawless prose 24/7 and fruitless to expect it.
Flawless is one thing.
Basic stuff like your/you're, they're/there/their, it's/its, loose/lose, affect/effect, apostrophes for plural, quotes for emphasis, etc, is another.
It demonstrates a lack of command of basic English. No one is asking for perfect construction in informal settings, but basic grammar from high school and college grads should not be too much to ask.
I also understand that autocorrect on smartphones conspires to make us look dumb sometimes. It's more of a pattern that I notice.
Unless English is not your first language, I can't begin to understand this.
It's admirable to maintain high standards of written language - for your own self-respect, if nothing else. (& it's much easier - IMO - to write like one of the guys if you have a good command of the language, instead of trying to write good English prose from the opposite perspective.)
That said, yes - if you insist on good English prose from everyone in every circumstance, you might wind up on your own a lot. Even in fora like this one, you get a good-sized range of variation in proficiency with the language - for various reasons. Some people can't produce good prose without a lot of effort, which casual comments don't usually get. Some people are worked up about the content of their comments, not the form - & if they're in a hurry, or want to sermonize, the content will seem much more important to them, & the form will suffer. English may not be their native or even second or third language.
My advice is to pay attention to the content, & look for quality there. The mechanics are important, but less so in informal settings & communication. For consistently high literary expression, you'd probably have to fall back on classic English literature. Certainly popular culture in the US isn't going to provide you much satisfaction in that department - it simply isn't in the cards. Plus there's some anti-intellectualism buried in popular culture anyway - there's a real concern not to appear too bright, with the boundaries on that ever-changing.
Good luck with it all. Maybe develop a different set of friends for when you want grammatical/lexical affirmation?
>> Unless English is not your first language, I can't begin to understand this.
I agree; that's an important exception. I so much admire people who are bi- or tri-lingual. I would not expect them to be perfect or criticize them for not being. Sometimes plurals are big offenders, like pluralizing advice as "advices." But their characters are shown to be even better when they don't feel resentful if you correct them. Gratitude under those circumstances is more admirable than anger.
If someone has a poor command of language I assume that they missed out on opportunities I was fortunate enough to have. That alone wouldn't be a basis for avoiding a potential friendship. Not for me, anyway.
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