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Frankly, Lodestar, the speech police thing in America has utterly worn out its welcome. Actually, to millions of people, it never has been welcome. And the intricate parsing of words is just immature and an attempt to control.
If somebody wants to refer to a relevant person in their life as toxic (because they are!) that should be accepted by anybody. There are deeply sick people in this world who have horrendous impact on the lives of others; and refuse to stop their atrocious behavior. They deserve much worse than merely being labeled what they are.
Thanks, gouligann. Yes. They are sick. Interacting with them may get you hurt. That's a given. It's part of their illness.
My explanation is not one of policing correct terms but rather encouraging a different and more hopeful way of thinking about those in our society who are seemingly without hope. A big part of our problems today is lack of good mental health care. We can hardly encourage funding when we promote the attitude that some people are incurable and mean and deserve to be treated as less than human. (For instance feeling sorry for an OCD patient because he can't help it but hating a narcissist as though they had control.)
They can't control it or they wouldn't be diagnosable. They are sick but it is their behavior that is toxic -not the human being himself. Maybe some of you who grew up with narcissism can't conceive of that precisely because you have learned to distance and dehumanize people (treat them as objects) in your family of origin just the same way the narcissist did?
The hurt and anger here make a strong case, as Ruth4Truth says, for good treatment for family members. But that won't come in the form of punishing and labeling the narcissist from a good therapist. The goal is always changing one's own beliefs and behaviors.
It can be VERY therapeutic, for the people who were tormented by a narcissistic family member, and grew up with low self-esteem as a result, without knowing why. Or children of such parents, who struggle to understand behavior that makes no sense, or that's hostile for no reason. When someone has grown up not being able to trust their own feelings, due to chronic gaslighting by a parent, it's very therapeutic for a therapist to explain, that the reason for their confusion is parental toxic, abnormal behavior.
I was talking about the therapist/narcissist relationship in the post above your post here, Ruth. Also society's attitudes toward people with this disorder and how they effect the possibility of his improvement.
I appreciate your perspective, though, about helping family members heal. If dismissing the narcissist as "toxic" and avoiding him were all it took no one would need help.
And I agree that it is in examining the behaviors and their effect on the family member is where the focus needs to be. Hopefully they will stay in treatment long enough to get to the part about how all of that has affected the way they parent and treat others.
That would complete the rare circle of healing and the world would be a better place.
Thanks, gouligann. Yes. They are sick. Interacting with them may get you hurt. That's a given. It's part of their illness.
My explanation is not one of policing correct terms but rather encouraging a different and more hopeful way of thinking about those in our society who are seemingly without hope. A big part of our problems today is lack of good mental health care. We can hardly encourage funding when we promote the attitude that some people are incurable and mean and deserve to be treated as less than human. (For instance feeling sorry for an OCD patient because he can't help it but hating a narcissist as though they had control.)
They can't control it or they wouldn't be diagnosable. They are sick but it is their behavior that is toxic -not the human being himself. Maybe some of you who grew up with narcissism can't conceive of that precisely because you have learned to distance and dehumanize people (treat them as objects) in your family of origin just the same way the narcissist did?
The hurt and anger here make a strong case, as Ruth4Truth says, for good treatment for family members. But that won't come in the form of punishing and labeling the narcissist from a good therapist. The goal is always changing one's own beliefs and behaviors.
That would be very helpful if narcissists would ever agree to treatment.
I'm sure you can understand that an unwilling patient can't be helped. Even addicts have to agree to go to rehab. A narcissist would NEVER admit they have a problem.
If you haven't experienced it, you are only guessing here.
I googled "is narcissism a mental illness" and the top two results were Wikipedia and the Mayo Clinic; since it's referred to as a disorder, my sense is that it is a mental illness, though I'm no expert at interpreting this language. See: https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-...s/syc-20366662
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There was a thread here on C-D, in this very sub-forum, asking that same question. Members who were in the mental health field weighed in, and said that the personality disorders, including narcissism, are a class of mental illness. One post in particular was very enlightening. It said that while the more severe mental illnesses, those we normally think of in that category, like schizophrenia, and so forth, can be treated to some degree with medications, the personality disorders cannot. They're hard-wired into a person's psyche through the childhood environment, years of daily programming that can't be undone, except, perhaps in the very rare cases when one of those patients sincerely wants to work at it.
I was talking about the therapist/narcissist relationship in the post above your post here, Ruth. Also society's attitudes toward people with this disorder and how they effect the possibility of his improvement.
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There is no therapist/narcissist relationship. Narcissists don't seek out therapy. They don't know they're ill, and wouldn't believe it, if someone told them they were. Even if one did seek help, the therapist would never tell them that they are a toxic person. That's not how therapy is done. The situation you're imagining from reading this thread, wouldn't exist. I think you've misunderstood some of the posts.
There was a thread here on C-D, in this very sub-forum, asking that same question. Members who were in the mental health field weighed in, and said that the personality disorders, including narcissism, are a class of mental illness. One post in particular was very enlightening. It said that while the more severe mental illnesses, those we normally think of in that category, like schizophrenia, and so forth, can be treated to some degree with medications, the personality disorders cannot. They're hard-wired into a person's psyche through the childhood environment, years of daily programming that can't be undone, except, perhaps in the very rare cases when one of those patients sincerely wants to work at it.
I remember reading that somewhere also, about the two categories: personality disorders (nothing is my fault) and neurotic disorders (everything is my fault). That does seem a little simplistic, though, if you look at the extensive list on Wikipedia: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List...ntal_disorders
But personality disorders, IIRC, are infinitely harder to treat than neurotic disorders.
There was a thread here on C-D, in this very sub-forum, asking that same question. Members who were in the mental health field weighed in, and said that the personality disorders, including narcissism, are a class of mental illness. One post in particular was very enlightening. It said that while the more severe mental illnesses, those we normally think of in that category, like schizophrenia, and so forth, can be treated to some degree with medications, the personality disorders cannot. They're hard-wired into a person's psyche through the childhood environment, years of daily programming that can't be undone, except, perhaps in the very rare cases when one of those patients sincerely wants to work at it.
The bolded part is very interesting to me. With my Mother, I suspect it is both DNA and childhood/upbringing. That's a combo that would be tough to penetrate!
This part may astonish some -- I lived for over 25 years in a region of the country that, throughout US history, has been very homogeneous. In terms of the part of Europe (United Kingdom) the vast majority of inhabitants originally came from, the predominant and strident religion there, the ethnicity, the fact that it was mostly rural so locals rarely experienced different ideas or behaviors.
ONLY in about the last 20 years have people from other parts of the country or world migrated to and live in that region. Even now, they're still not there in big numbers. So, given all that, there is truly some very standardized behavior amongst millions. Unfortunately, I'm prepared to say that a substantial portion of the population raised there, by families that have been there for generations, have very limited emotional ranges. They are some of the coldest people I've ever known (I've lived in 3 regions of America). They emulate compassion -- you can tell because their actions don't match their words and even the words sound hollow. Listen closely and you'll hear their motivations for why they do this or that. It's almost always because of the personal benefit.
I could regale with stories and examples of the fakeness, deceptions, manipulations and gaslighting that are part of everyday life -- they were raised that way and have never lived anywhere else. So, it is normal to them. You could describe how something they did was thoughtless or rude or unfair and you'd simply get a blank look and a change of the subject. There is zero willingness for self-reflection or assumption of responsibility. I have a strong argument to make that the majority of that native population are on the narcissistic spectrum, millions of them. Simply scary.
I’ve written about toxic narcissistic parents in my other thread. Do you guys think that narcissistic personality disorder should be thought of as an illness like any other and that there should be sympathy and an attempt to work/help them in some way? Or is it so harmful to everyone around that it’s best to just limit or stop all contact to save your sanity and emotional well being?
I think it IS an illness, and that there are therapeutic ways of dealing with it. That said...like any illness, if the person with the illness doesn't think they have a problem, they're not going to seek out help.
And since the nature of the illness is to think they themselves are so wonderful, and everyone else are the ones with a problem...
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