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Any comment that Obama is not a US citizen is specious. That chicken long ago flew the coop.
Thanks! That is why it is troubling that as recently as November 2017, President Trump still expressed doubts about it. That is ignorance in my view. Btw, this is not a "liberal" talking point. Some Republicans have criticized Trump, too. People in general are very surprised that he can't grasp that simple fact.
Last edited by chessgeek; 05-23-2018 at 12:32 PM..
Thanks! That is why it is troubling that as recently as November 2017, President Trump still expressed doubts about it. That is ignorance in my view. Btw, this is not a "liberal" talking point. Some Republicans have criticized Trump, too. People in general are very surprised that he can't grasp that simple fact.
I think it's plain and simple, Trump is ignorant on the facts regarding Obama's citizenship. If the allegations were true they would have been outed many years ago. The fact that Obama served 8 years in office with people trying to pick him apart on his citizenship, and failed, is proof enough for me that Obama is a US citizen. I'll admit that some of my conservative friends still hold that belief. I don't waste time discussing it with them any more.
Conservatives have their blind spots, and liberal have their blind spots. They will not accept facts or opinions that challenge their tenets. I have only so many breaths left in my body and I'm not going to waste any of them discussing stupid subjects.
I have a little nagging suspicion that Trump may be gaming us and pretending to believe Obama is not a US citizen. Hell, I voted for him, but that doesn't mean I believe all his blather.
In fact, separate everything Trump has said into (1) truth, and (2) blather. The fact that each of us will come up with a different list proves that identity politics is alive and well.
Poverty fell from over 20% to as low as 13%....even better than it looks (and that is an incredible drop) due to a much larger population. However, certain forces (Reaganism, Newt, Predatory Capitalism, wars, health care, etc) have reversed some of those gains. Still, using any metric, it worked and is still working (I think we are at 17% now, a 15% reduction plus...due to population increases....vastly more people who at least are getting medicare, etc.
When you base your world view off a misunderstanding, then the rest won't turn out very well either.
Medicare and Fair Housing and Voting Rights and Civil Rights - all signed by LBJ, have worked. Of course, like everything else in our country, the "nativists" don't like that other people benefit from them. They want THEIR medicare, but not someone elses.
I’m not talking poverty rates. I’m talking generational poverty that largely has single parent households as the root cause. A totally failed public education system in places with high concentrations of that demographic. Bill Clinton and TANF put a 5 year cap on cash benefits. That wasn’t Ronnie.
Just wow! Your entire post just blew me away. I muted my TV to concentrate because your post was unlike the candy I've been reading. I place the blame directly on the media and upon people who believe that dreck. And a secondary blame on those who still reject the election which was IMO a reaction (1) against professional politicians and party politics, and (2) the realization that HRC is crooked with her smashed cells/tablets and bathroom email server. It is perfectly clear to me that there was a sub-channel used by those who avoided government servers to evade detection of illegal and improper acts.
Well, thank you.
I caution throwing blame around, but I do believe a few things happened that caused Trump's victory.
1) Trump was able to get a rise out of the rural Americans who have felt the pressures since the most recent depression as their small towns have never rebounded from that, due to many manufacturers shutting down and either relocating or going out of business altogether. The media hype around the extremist views couldn't be farther from the truth. His branding of this election as the last great chance for rural America to have their voice heard rallied the troops. Sounds similarly opposite from a certain election in 2008 with Hope and Change, no?
Also not well known - the Agriculture industry has been in a deep recession since 2015 due to a few factors, primarily slowed Chinese demand and South American acre growth that equaled the total acres for soybeans in the US. You read right, they ADDED the equivalent acres that the US has IN TOTAL. Primarily Brazil and Argentina. The only fortunate aspect for US farmers is that those countries have terrible infrastructure and innovation. That still didn't keep prices of corn and soybeans from hitting their lowest levels since the 1980's when Farm Aid and other rescue missions for the family farmers were all the rage.
2) The other reason he won was because of the lack of the black vote. Whether this is because there wasn't an Obama or other African-American liberal on the ticket can be debated, but it's my perception that it's a combination of a lackluster 8-year performance from Obama (blacks didn't really gain much in his term according to many of my friends, though some blamed the partisan standoffishness for that) and a little talked about phenomenon with regard to Billary. Blacks LOVED Bill Clinton, and really disliked Hillary within the relationship during Bill's Presidency. Chris Rock even had a bit about it in the 90's. I believe that combination is what suppressed the black vote in 2016.
When you combine the two, you find why some of the northern blue states turned red and why the majority of the swing states swung red.
Everything else was media noise and probably changed the votes within the margin of error. Hillary's scandals didn't help matters, but most people don't change their party vote due to media driven scandals which are often inflated, or even fabricated by the opposing party.
I’m intrigued that this thread turned into a political debate vs a thread about the impact of politics on your feelings and behaviors.
Any thread discussing politics, whether feelings or otherwise will end up this way because it's a hot button issue.
Long story short - don't let your mind be taken hostage by things outside of your control.
There's a fantastic line in the book "The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People" that states, "There's a space in between stimulus and response, and within that space is the power to choose. This space is like a giant pause button. We don't have to react to every stimulus. Instead, we pause, reflect and choose our response. This is precisely what makes us human."
How does that line make you feel with regard to your original post?
Let me tell you some examples I’ve experienced in my work life in recent years. I’m fairly senior and experienced in my field no spent a lot of time consulting in it as well so I know a good amount and have a wide range of experience.
I’ve got a coworker now who has very limited experience in role. Went from a technical job to a marketing job. He has never worked closely with someone in my role. In basically every meeting I have with him, he tried to disagree with me and has no experience in what I am giving advice on. He has no problem hearing it when a male colleague backs me up and validates what I said. When I originate it without backup, he tries to tell me I am wrong. Until someone else chimes in. He regularly interrupts any of my comments and doesn’t do the same to other people.
I go into meetings and people assume I am the sectratary and not the decision maker or key stakeholder.
I had a colleague who repeatedly tried to steal my ideas in meetings, repeating them verbatim to take credit.
I go to meetings and people quiz me hard on my qualifications but do not ask anyone else in the room and they assume they are experts without requiring “proof points.” They are taken at face value.
These things may or may not be malicious, but imagine dealing with it on a regular basis. It is just an expectation. I go into meetings with new people knowing I have to spend some extra time sharing my qualifications and experience before saying anything.
You are the only one who can determine if this behavior is racist based on the totality of these people's behavior.
But, there are millions of professional white women who could tell you they have had the same experiences.
My guess is it has little to do with racism and much more to do with how men generally operate in the workplace.
There are lots of studies on this, as well as articles/advise on how women can combat this type of stuff.
I do not mind having civil debate with friends and do, it is not an echo chamber, and you do not have to agree with me to be a friend.
But this thread really highlights the exhaustion/hesitation I feel right now when potentially dealing with new people.
A person can say, “I have this experience, it is uncomfortable.”. Someone might respond “well my experience is not like that - prove it. I don’t believe that is possible. You need to convince me. Where is your evidence? Educate me on all of the historical stuff that may have impacted it. You haven’t presented me with enough evidence.”
And maybe after you do all of that heavy lifting, they may possible believe you for that one case. And you have to do it again and again. And suddenly you have taken on the burden of educating someone else. Because your experience can’t be taken at face value. There is no empathy until you have proven that experience is valid. There is no meeting in the middle.
And that’s what sends me into retreat. A lifetime of taking on that work has left me tired.
I thought this post was worth reading again. Whether we agree or disagree with the decision the OP made, I don't think it is to too much to ask that we can appreciate what she has been through.
I’m not talking poverty rates. I’m talking generational poverty that largely has single parent households as the root cause. A totally failed public education system in places with high concentrations of that demographic. Bill Clinton and TANF put a 5 year cap on cash benefits. That wasn’t Ronnie.
Surely you know the difference between the POTUS and the Congress?
Wasn't it the Newt and all his friends that pushed "welfare reform". Sure, Clinton signed it, but you have to mention who created it and passed it through the house and the Senate.
As to a 5 year cap - that may be a good idea. Obviously all programs need reform every decade or so...just to keep up with budget problems and also after you see the effects of programs.
For example, it isn't and wasn't a great idea to give more benefits to households that have more kids....at least over "X" kids. Then you might have an exception for a personally qualified and vetted family that has adopted a number. But it should never "pay" to have children that the family cannot support in the basics.
I remember a woman being interviewed that took advantage of all the training programs and got skills and then a job. Perfect example, right? Wrong. She detailed what she made (as a graphics pro), the cost for child care and for commuting and other factors and - even at a reasonable wage, she was not even close in terms of paying her way.
I think we can agree such problems are always worthy of looking deeply at and adjusting our programs so that they work correctly.
The ideas of universal health insurance and free (basic - community) college are two good ones that would take a lot of pressure off those trying to be upwardly mobile. I question whether those that oppose such things are being sincere in thinking they are "bad" or if they just don't want competition for jobs and resources.
As you probably know, in past history much of the racism was against "them" (blacks, mexicans...even all forms of Euro and other immigrants) taking our jobs. So this stuff has a sordid history.
I'll provide my insights as a long-time political centrist and athiest white man in his early 40's who has lived in areas with both political extremes and have experienced closed-mindedness from both sides:
I grew up in suburban Kentucky - an incredibly red state with very blue major cities. The racism I saw here as a child was pungent and frustrating. The public school system here buses minority kids from the low-income inner city to all of the schools in the Louisville area, including the affluent ones. This has caused an uproar in town for as long as I can recall. I met some fantastic friends that I never would have had the opportunity to otherwise. OTOH, many of the inner city kids who weren't as good caused a lot of problems for the school administrators which really diminished the quality of the education I received. When hanging out with my black friends, I was called a N*** lover among other colorful phrases - this was in the Rodney King era where blacks on TV were holding guns and singing songs like Eff the Police (by a guy who went on to become a long time actor on Law & Order SVU btw). I loved rap back then and felt compelled by the movement, but I was young and naive.
I left Louisville for an affluent suburb of Indianapolis, also a pretty red area among many blue cities due to all of the schools of higher learning they have. I heard racist stuff there too in the mid-2000s.
Then I moved to a college town in southern Indiana, just south of an area that apparently was formerly the KKK HQ at least for the state of Indiana at one point in history. The city always had an ongoing feud which was told to me as labeled "college people vs townies". In truth it was affluent educated liberals vs low-income whites who identified as Republican. Both sides seem to love to rile each other up. In fact, one of my former direct reports and FB contacts who still lives there (a black man) posted joyfully the other day as someone affixed a giant white bedsheet on the top of the local high school building with large permanent marker letters "Eff Trump" (except it was spelled the proper way). AFAIK, nobody knows at this point who did it, but all of the liberal college folks celebrated it anyhow.
I then moved to Orlando, FL - a giant melting pot of ethnicity, with a near (if not already) majority of Latin ethnicities in the population. Whites are basically in the minority. Here it was a very interesting experience seeing the whites from Ohio and Michigan and other Midwestern towns that migrated who were upset at all the minorities (primarily Blacks and Hispanics) they had to deal with on a daily basis, and the attitudes of some of the Latin people I came across while playing basketball at parks there. I made friends with a coworker originally from Venezuela and came across guys from Mexico, Columbia, Puerto Rico, and a few other Venezuelans. Some of them called me "gringo" and were downright rude and physical with me but I am not the retaliating type so I brushed it off and kept playing.
My Venezuelan friend told me to visit some Latin American countries. He said "If you think American racism is bad, go to a Central or South American country. Even though they are the same countrymen at this point, there are different color shades of people, from light to dark due to their native origins, and the darker people are always victims of racism."
I then moved with my wife to San Francisco during the heart of the battle of the Googlers vs the alleged "native liberals". At much of the fiber of my being prior to moving to SF, I really felt strongly that I was a centrist with left leanings. While I still believe in human rights, women's rights to choose what happens to their bodies and generally just being good to people, I saw a side of liberals in the Bay Area that really sickened me. Much of what I saw as a child was that there were some racist whites who were incredibly misguided about what they purported to dislike, and so I figured that the other side of the spectrum was right and they were wrong.
Well, seeing how violent and crazy the leftists were toward the Google/Yahoo/Etc buses, and to my wife and I when we arrived was appalling. Because we arrived at a time when artists and musicians were being evicted from their apartments and rents were skyrocketing, the assumption was that since we had enough money to pay the higher rent that we were part of the problem, and were treated in neighborhood meetings as if we had a cloud of feces over our heads at all times. We had an incredibly loud neighbor in the studio apartment in front of ours who was practicing his showtunes constantly. We asked him politely to consider others around him and that I was working from home one day a week and couldn't concentrate on conference calls - he ignored me and went about his singing during the daytime and evening hours. Noise complaints to the landlord did nothing and the neighborhood folks all told us to just shut up and let the artist do his thing - since he was there first.
After my father's stroke, we moved back to Kentucky - and I started working for a lender that serviced the Agriculture industry. Talk about opposite ends of the spectrum. However, an interesting dynamic appeared based on the ages of some of the people I met. Sure, I met some Trump loving folks who balked when I said that I came back to Kentucky from San Francisco, because to most people who rarely leave the state or only travel to the Redneck Riviera in Florida for vacation, SF is still a super gay place and that's it. However, most of those Trump tooting folks were 50+ years old. I met a group of farmers in the middle of nowhere Kentucky who were all in their 30's and they were all talking about how much they love the show Modern Family - and how much they love the gay character on that show, even though they acknowledged that they don't really agree with the fact that he's gay, but they understood it and didn't judge him or the show for it.
The takeaways I've had through my 40-ish years of existence is that avoiding the things you don't like and hiding under a blanket is never the appropriate way to handle things. However, that seems to be where the OP and many others like them are headed. Ignorance abounds on both ends of the political spectrum. Rather than feeding into the media frenzy, have you actually talked to these 'white people' to learn why they feel how they do and really tried to understand them? Of course not. It's easier to vilify and use the media's extreme examples to feed your anger than to seek understanding.
The media truly has caused this increased divisiveness, and the President adds fuel to the fire with many of his remarks as well. The liberals are allegedly the most educated and most understanding of the human condition from what I gather, so why they choose to react in the same way that the more conservative people do who have a lesser worldview and lesser education do is interesting to me, as it somewhat contradicts that theory. Book smarts don't teach you how to react to things you don't like appropriately, I guess.
If you're letting the media or the President sway your responses to life, then as stated earlier, you are part of the problem. Be good to EVERYONE you cross paths with, not just people you agree with. That's the key to creating more harmony again.
Thank you for a most interesting posting. You have lived an amazing life and have a lot to teach the rest of us.
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