Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I cannot support the incel movement because of their anger, bitterness, and negative toxicity. However, I think these guys are created because struggling guys have been treated poorly most of their lives. It starts in childhood where boys are bullied and shunned because they act and look different. A kid might be socially awkward. He might spend all his time studying and playing sports. His parents might be cold and unaffectionate. He never went to the gym and had new clothes because his parents didn't have the money.
Then in high school, he tried to ask a girl out. He gets rejected. The girl rejects him and starts gossiping about him with her friends. They avoid him. This happens several times. It continues into college where again he gets rejected and ostracized. He tries to ask his friends and family for help. They tell him that he's a wonderful guy and that he should not change. He doesn't accept that advice because he knows that's not working.
After college, he joins some young adult groups. Again girls reject him and he gets ostractized...again. Eventually, he becomes more passive due to all the blows to his self-esteem. A cute girl tries to flirt with him. He doesn't pick up on the signal and fails to ask her out. He tries asking for help on different relationship boards. The people on the boards are harsh and tell him to stop being so picky. Stop pining over models.
He finds the advice offensive. However, desperately, he does date a woman online that likes him even though he is lukewarm about her. It naturally ends due to his lukewarmness. Eventually, the guy becomes bitter because he thought he would live the American dream with a wife if he went to school and had a good job. But no, he is a failure because he committed the crime of wanting someone "outside his league". He becomes bitter when he sees cocky, obnoxious guys get the same girls he is pining after because the cocky guy has attitude and throws parties. Eventually, the nice guy joins one of these incel communities.
I know that these incel communities are awful places. However, society should hold some responsibility. Shouldn't you be teaching struggling guys basic things like fashion and hygiene over lowering standards? I go outside and see guys look awful. They look like that their mothers bought their clothes for them. I don't think lowering their standards will improve their fashion sense. A guy is rightly considered a failure if he fails to do the research to find great advice regarding fashion, body language, and dating. However, I don't understand why you are partly responsible in a small way if a struggling guy fails to improve if you fail to tell him what he is doing wrong.
I see women outside the Internet spend a lot of time, effort, and money to look their best. Yet, the women in the Internet message boards can't tell guys to look their best? I thought women were fashion experts. I know a couple of guys over fifty years of age who are clueless about dating. They never complain. I wonder whether any women in their social circle ever called a timeout and told them what they're doing wrong.
I'd love it if guys overall tried to improve themselves. I say it over and over in here, and am told, no, that's not it, it's that women are picky and entitled. So hmmmm.
That sounds like a pretty good intake appointment for a clinical psychologist, and BTW I'm sure psychologists could really help incels become productive and satisfied with their gender relationships.
You described a reasonable scenario about how a young man might become involuntarily celibate. Note (1) it sounds like incel communities are not focused on getting better, they have joined to share their anger, and (2) we give good advice here on the forum all the time, most incels appear to ignore our advice.
I don't believe that dressing poorly is necessarily an incel characteristic, but sure, some of them could have no fashion sense. I don't think that's the root of the problem.
I don't think dressing has anything to do with it. I think most common is social disorders, inability to understand social nuance and social cues, so they think it's all a game being played they aren't in on. I think more than average are probably on the spectrum somewhere albeit mildly.
None of my comments were meant to be humorous in any way whatsoever.
I think it's very likely penis size is the root of inceldom. It's the one thing they can't change.
ironpony asked "what's the REAL reason why they won't lower their standards?"
If I were to guess, I'd say it's because a fat woman is just as likely to tell all of her friends how small the guy's penis is.
By avoiding sexual encounters, the incel can keep his dignity.
This wouldn't necessarily be a concern in junior high, high school, but most of these guys were unable to have even dates, didn't go to prom, etc. They were the loners alone at the lunch table.
I find too many had/have a hard time making male friends too, but they don't get mad at them like they do the girls.
Many men actually create a catch-22 with this. I'm a very feminine woman, I like the man being in charge in dating and relationships. Because of that, I want an old fashioned man who will court me. That means I'm not going to pull my wallet out on a date.
There are a LOT of guys who state they won't date a feminist, but then they state they won't date a woman who won't offer to pay on a date, never realizing it is precisely the feminist women who are willing to do that. Can't have everything.
They read books saying the worse you treat women, the more she'll like you, so you get jerky responses and all sorts of game playing in terms of calling when they said they would, etc. Healthy women run from this.
Or who won't have sex before marriage. By the third date. Just with them, though.
Or who "expect" him to do the driving...fix stuff...bring flowers...always be the one to call (text)...be "protective"/prove they're strong...etc.
These guys *demand* feminism in a huge number of ways...except one: women should not have a choice or ever speak up.
Huh???
ETA: oh, sorry, I see Fleetiebelle already spoke about this.
I also previously dated a middle-aged man who dressed like a dork. WoW (for gaming folks) shirts, high top sneakers, jean shorts, kneck-length hair, total nerd/geek (former assistant principal and had just left his high school teaching job, as a video production/film teacher), computer programmer, writer, cosplay, D&D/MtG fanguy. Hardcore nerd/geek. (Snip) He's still a dork.
So anyway, you wouldn't happen to still have his number, would you?
Or who won't have sex before marriage. By the third date. Just with them, though.
Or who "expect" him to do the driving...fix stuff...etc.
These guys *demand* feminism in a huge number of ways...except one: women should not have a choice or ever speak up.
Huh???
Yes, I find it very ironic. I had all this is my profile, I explained how I like old fashioned courtship and relationships with men, and it actually said "You be Tarzan, I'll be Jane". Guys would find that appealing, but still at some point in early chatting or dating they'd try to make me in charge of everything from initiating calling to deciding what they date would be and where we'd go. It was quite frustrating. They would say they want girls like they used to be, dating like it used to be, but then get mad because I wasn't calling them.
... I think most common is social disorders, inability to understand social nuance and social cues, so they think it's all a game being played they aren't in on. I think more than average are probably on the spectrum somewhere albeit mildly.
There is no doubt those people exist, and probably women in the same situation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerZ
Or who won't have sex before marriage.
Just one thing, I think it's a mistake, and an old fashion concept that has been long discarded, but I think what used to be called "living in sin" is now just a SO relationship. Except then you were not. And after having experience with several partners in different situations, only then did I feel ready to really settle down and maybe get married. Except that was then and this is now.
I think people who won't have sex before getting married are making a big mistake.
Yes, I find it very ironic. I had all this is my profile, I explained how I like old fashioned courtship and relationships with men, and it actually said "You be Tarzan, I'll be Jane". Guys would find that appealing, but still at some point in early chatting or dating they'd try to make me in charge of everything from initiating calling to deciding what they date would be and where we'd go. It was quite frustrating. They would say they want girls like they used to be, dating like it used to be, but then get mad because I wasn't calling them.
Yes, because they're not traditional, just lazy. They want to not do any of what they call "the work" but they want the sex handed to them on a silver platter, the texts to float in, and their wallets to stay fat. Meanwhile, never having to act traditionally strong or take care of anything. That's not "traditional," that's incapable.
I'm not traditional, so to speak, but if you're going to do it...do it.
Otherwise, shut up how women and society "today" are the problem. Obviously, that's not the issue here.
"But there are no women who will act traditional in return!" Yes there are, guys, but you don't want them, because they're church girls and not hotties and won't sleep with you and won't buy their own coffee.
There is no doubt those people exist, and probably women in the same situation.
Just one thing, I think it's a mistake, and an old fashion concept that has been long discarded, but I think what used to be called "living in sin" is now just a SO relationship. Except then you were not. And after having experience with several partners in different situations, only then did I feel ready to really settle down and maybe get married. Except that was then and this is now.
I think people who won't have sex before getting married are making a big mistake.
So do I, but I'm not running around screaming that I want an old-fashioned relationship and that the trouble with society today is that men have choices and don't "need" women and are able to have "lots of" sex.
I once briefly dated a guy who espoused Incel dogma, though I don't think he was a virgin. He was 33. He came off bitter and angry in his profile. He wrote this whole angsty diatribe in his profile. I came across his profile on several occasions and always rolled my eyes. And thing is, he was an attractive guy. Tall, very fit and nice-looking, by many standards. But his attitude sucked.
Why did you date him?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metaphysique
I will say, though, I wondered about something, the thing you state, because...yeah. And it seemed like he tried hard to overcompensate for it in a very OTT kind of way. I got the feeling like he self-sabotages dating before the woman can call things off. That and another condition some women may be weirded out by.
What was the other condition?
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
