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People who make their own problems or people who are the cause of their own problems, through various physical, mental, emotional, or social issues that they may not be causing intentionally? Subtle difference. Self-sabotage is real; so is social anxiety, poor social skills, poor romantic skills, lack of self confidence, deformity, autism spectrum disorder, etc.
All of these are good reasons to seek counseling from a clinical psychologist.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pogue Mahone
Incel women don't kill themselves, they get cats. And incel men didn't used to get all bitter about it and form groups where they fed off each other's frustrations, they just played Dungeons & Dragons together. But I guess that's out of fashion now.
It appears the only thing that has changed is the forming protest groups. We should just ignore them and maybe they will go away. Go away and play DnD or pet their cats...
Last edited by Lovehound; 10-30-2018 at 08:35 AM..
There's a ton of men out there that could have their lives changed if women approached and initiated. Women incorrectly assume if they aren't approached that nobody wants them.... I realize biology drives men to be pursuers and women to be the pursued however but a lot of men are shy or just bad at the playful banter women expect when being pursued.
Women might actually like the guy too...maybe not in all cases, but a lot of men are appreciative of getting any attention from women at all. A man who is starved for affection will be much more appreciative when he gets it in a genuine way then the man who's so desired by women he has them lined up chasing him because of his natural charm or good looks.
Men dont handle loneliness that well..we cope as best we can, often in a silent or stoic manner...especially the ones the always wanted the one special someone to have a family with and weren't ever interested in screwing around with random women.
They don't appreciate being friend-zoned. Any woman giving an incel positive attention better be prepared for a stage five clinger situation.
There's a ton of men out there that could have their lives changed if women approached and initiated. Women incorrectly assume if they aren't approached that nobody wants them.... I realize biology drives men to be pursuers and women to be the pursued however but a lot of men are shy or just bad at the playful banter women expect when being pursued.
Women might actually like the guy too...maybe not in all cases, but a lot of men are appreciative of getting any attention from women at all. A man who is starved for affection will be much more appreciative when he gets it in a genuine way then the man who's so desired by women he has them lined up chasing him because of his natural charm or good looks.
Men dont handle loneliness that well..we cope as best we can, often in a silent or stoic manner...especially the ones the always wanted the one special someone to have a family with and weren't ever interested in screwing around with random women.
All of this implies that it's somehow the duty of women to take on the well-being of strange men as a form of social welfare, and that's not a reasonable thing to ask. Judging that a woman is no longer "nice" for acting in her own best interest is ridiculous. A woman's love life is not a charity. If a lonely man is having a rough time, that's sad for him, but it's his responsibility to take care of (and get right with) himself.
I've agreed with all of those sentiments multiple times. My question: does a guy who starts harboring resentment for others because of factors that he did not intentionally design deserve compassion? Or is he to be ridiculed and treated like a potential criminal/terrorist?
It's a valid question for me, because compassion is an important part of my personal philosophy. I have been working on "compassion with boundaries." Because it is possible to be compassionate, yet have my boundaries that keep me safe. Just because I care about someone who is down on his luck doesn't mean I have any obligation to impoverish myself trying to save him, in any way, for instance. And frankly my efforts to "help" people who seemed to need it most, only ended up in me enabling them, as they tend to take whatever I could give, trash it, and demand more more more. Some people are bottomless pits who make bad choices and no amount of any kind of help...really helps. Until they learn to help themselves. I mean really, take this with ANY commodity in mind. Not just love as a means to self-esteem and healthy emotional wellbeing. But the old "teach a man to fish" thing. There's some validity in it.
And along those lines, if a person is simply struggling and hurting, then I feel a lot of compassion and I don't mind backing that with my time, energy, and positive interaction. But if he is feeding the inner beast of hostility and anger and blame and he seems potentially dangerous to me, then I am under ZERO obligation to stand there and take a beating from him so he can feel...better? Probably not. If you seem dangerous, I'll avoid that, as will any woman who has any sense. And some of these men, despite their protestations of being "nice"...really do not seem that way to us. Hostility isn't "nice."
Quote:
Originally Posted by stockwiz
There's a ton of men out there that could have their lives changed if women approached and initiated. Women incorrectly assume if they aren't approached that nobody wants them.... I realize biology drives men to be pursuers and women to be the pursued however but a lot of men are shy or just bad at the playful banter women expect when being pursued.
Women might actually like the guy too...maybe not in all cases, but a lot of men are appreciative of getting any attention from women at all. A man who is starved for affection will be much more appreciative when he gets it in a genuine way then the man who's so desired by women he has them lined up chasing him because of his natural charm or good looks.
Men dont handle loneliness that well..we cope as best we can, often in a silent or stoic manner...especially the ones the always wanted the one special someone to have a family with and weren't ever interested in screwing around with random women.
I agree with the bold. In fact I have found that a lot of the worst offenders in terms of how they interacted with me or pursued me, were not the guys who struggle to get a date. They are the entitled ones. The ones who get women but cannot keep them. I have many friends in my social groups who are the shy, nerdy, sweet men who have yet to find companionship. But they don't hang out online being angry at women. In fact they're very respectful. They don't have any assumptions that I find them attractive anyways, and they know I'm taken, and they respect that. They seem grateful when I engage them and treat them as worthwhile to talk to and spend time with, and I always hope that in my groups, since my opinions are valued there, that others will see me accepting Shy Guy and also be easy with him. There is one I have in mind, he has a speech problem, stammering and long pauses and it can be hard to talk to him. A woman I know said she thought he was "slow" and I corrected her, because no, he's very smart. He just has a speech issue and it's not his fault. If you are patient and you listen to him, he's very smart and witty, actually.
But I am one woman. I cannot control, only sometimes influence a bit, how other women perceive men. And despite my promiscuous years where I DID give all sorts of guys a "chance" (not that incels actually appreciate that, as they'd call it "riding the carousel") ultimately I cannot partner with every lonely guy. I'm one damn woman! So I love the one I'm with. Which frankly is what most of us are trying to find, just somebody to love. And most are doing that. With regular guys. Thing that's silly, in the incel mentality there's nothing a woman can do, to "win." If we give lots of "chances" we are judged for that, if we partner with an attractive man, we're being superficial and playing into the "Chad/Stacey" thing, and if we partner with a guy just like them, a regular dude or even a shy, nerdy one, then it MUST be we settled down with a "Timothy" we don't find attractive so he could provide for us, while dreaming of (or cheating with) a "Chad." Which is all BS crap. But at the core is the self loathing, that even if they got a woman to love them, they could never trust her to love them. They would reject love if it even found them, because they believe themselves to be unlovable and they have no trust of women. It's not even a matter of asking if it's women's JOB to fix these guys...we can't. Not ultimately. Not if they don't take part in helping themselves.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tamajane
They don't appreciate being friend-zoned. Any woman giving an incel positive attention better be prepared for a stage five clinger situation.
Well...again, it probably depends. The legit nice but shy/lonely guys...not always, if you keep your boundaries clear. The toxic internet incels, who knows but yeah I'd think this is a likely possibility.
They don't appreciate being friend-zoned. Any woman giving an incel positive attention better be prepared for a stage five clinger situation.
There is that possibility, though not all of them are that way. Some of them are independent and can do things on their own and have standards and expectations. I guess it comes down to what a woman would rather have... a bad boy status symbol who is hard to handle, really extroverted, etc. or an overly affectionate, perhaps too affectionate guy that could end up turning off her off from a basic biological perspective but would make a great friend, companion, provider, etc. I suppose most end up with a happy medium, lol.
Of course not all "nice guys" are nice and not all confident men are asses ... it's mostly a mixture of traits. "Nice guy" is a term insecure men use to try to gain sympathy I'll admit.... and "soul mate" could actually mean "stalker."
I still get the perspective that dating is much easier for women as far as quantity goes... that men are lined up in a queue thanks to social media where they can sample from the buffet, especially in their 20's. Men have to put in all this effort and if they didn't win the genetic lottery or turn out well adjusted they have to struggle to get any affection, much less sex. (This is not a new phenomenon though... if you look back on our evolutionary history, at best 50% of men passed on their seed, and during some periods it was as low as 15%, when most men were basically slaves from birth) Quantity doesn't necessarily equate to quality but I see these posts about women wanting "good men" and I see all these good men out there, they just aren't super confident or exciting, they don't come on boldly and chase hard... I think what some of these women (not all of them) really mean is that the types of men they find attractive don't end up being "good men" to them.. typically rough, bad boy types, the type their genetics dictate they desire.
My main problem has always been lack of playfulness and lack of the ability to be witty/funny which is perhaps the most important trait a man could have especially in the initial attraction "crush" phase of the relationship. It's just the way I got wired thanks to upbringing. I'm not good at "small talk" and don't have a lot of stories to tell that make people laugh. I didn't grow up wired to be interested in that, and only as I've gotten older do I see the importance of all facets of one's personality including playful banter. I know to change it would require moving to a more populated area, going into bars, and practice practice practice over and over. Force myself to be someone I turned out not to be... do I want to do this? I'd rather find a cuddly "deep" introvert who can look past my flaws. I'll get there.
Stockwiz, you know what my guy did that really turned things around for him? (He is an introvert, very very much an introvert.)
First he got really philosophical. Zen Buddhist stuff. Not the religion, but the philosophy. And he did things he wanted to do, living mindfully in the present and letting go of outcomes. He says he used to be a much angrier man, and I find it hard to believe, but he's really healed a lot of it with the Zen stuff and the self-help reading and such.
Funny, he would think he does not have stories to tell, but he really just has to let his guard down enough to want to share them. That does not come easily or naturally to him. But he can talk in bumper stickers, and tell little Zen koans and get people to think. And he's a good listener. That is a very valuable thing. A lot of women like to talk, and a man who cares and listens, and doesn't steamroll over us in conversation, can be very appreciated.
Then he joined a community. Now don't get me wrong, he is introverted and this was not comfortable to him. He had to push himself out of his own comfort zone. But he did. I can't say he got as immersed in it as I did, he only made a few friends, but it gave him a pond to fish in. Eventually, 3 years after he joined, I came along. He was able to see online that we shared some common interests, so he sent me a message asking if I'd be down to meet up with him at an event I'd RSVP'ed to, and we did meet up there. The little bit he had to say was good stuff and he did a lot of listening. He didn't really have to be charismatic and put on a gregarious and witty performance. Just like a therapist might, all he had to do was keep me talking by asking a question if there was a lull in the conversation. And appear to be relaxed in my presence. Now he did not expect to get a relationship out of this. His hopes were far less ambitious. But it's turned out better than anything either of us could have dreamed of. It's a real success story in my opinion.
TL;DR version: You're an introvert? Find an extrovert to "adopt" you. It's kinda what we do.
That's the thing--I get being frustrated or upset that certain things that seem easy for other people are difficult for you (general you, not specifically you, Diss.) The issue I see with the online groups like MGOTW and the incel sites is that they're so steeped in toxic negativity. These guys aren't coming up with constructive, supportive ways to advocate for themselves or to make positive choices to be content with their lives. They're wallowing in hatred and misery and wondering why that's not paying off for them.
Technically, the MGTOW should be simply dropping out of the game entirely.
All of these are good reasons to seek counseling from a clinical psychologist.
It appears the only thing that has changed is the forming protest groups. We should just ignore them and maybe they will go away. Go away and play DnD or pet their cats...
I hope you haven't actually used your psychology degree to treat patients, because the lack of empathy is a disqualifier.
Let's look at issues you quoted as reasons to seek counseling:
social anxiety, poor social skills, poor romantic skills, lack of self confidence, deformity, autism spectrum disorder, etc.
Some therapists special in social anxiety, lack of self confidence, and autism spectrum disorder. Deformity? The others, not that I know of. Plus, other than ASD, it probably wouldn't be easy to identify someone with a specialty without knowing that those aren't standard areas of treatment. Hence, people going to therapists who aren't helpful. Furthermore, I don't know that social anxiety and lack of self confidence can be treated with much success in most cases (maybe because they're often secondary or significantly genetic), and of course autism is incurable.
Some of them are alright but really the group as a whole is just a pretty insecure lot. You might not know it by visiting their subreddit but they start to shadow ban or outright ban people pretty fast if you stray too far outside their dogma. I got outright banned with one account and shadowbanned with another...me... I went through a pretty hardcore MGTOW streak there for a while as a certain mod here can attest too.... People secure in their beliefs dont feel the need to censor and have safe spaces but that's what most subreddits are...glorified safe spaces... A place to get one particular viewpoint on one particular subject.... With their bans they limit the perception given to them to a very narrow range of people. I finally gave up on them which is good...too much toxic programming for the limbic system.
I look at it like this.
A "man going his own way" is no longer even engaged in the dating market. They're not hostile because they're disengaged. They've moved on. Other interests take priority. In theory, MGTOW would be on the internet basically to share ideas with other men in the same position, and maybe to civilly debate others of an opposing view.
Incels are militantly against women. They're the ones making the noise in the market.
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The others, not that I know of. Plus, other than ASD, it probably wouldn't be easy to identify someone with a specialty without knowing that those aren't standard areas of treatment. Hence, people going to therapists who aren't helpful. Furthermore, I don't know that social anxiety and lack of self confidence can be treated with much success in most cases (maybe because they're often secondary or significantly genetic), and of course autism is incurable.
