Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I personally believe there is a big difference between people being mean, being toxic or being evil. I think some people can be all three, but most people are one of those three.
I was just telling a friend of mine this morning about things that went down at a job I worked at. Put all together, it was obvious to both of us that I had a very toxic manager. But here's the thing. She was toxic to me and because of her, I had a hard time working there. Some people had the same hard time I did, yet other people got along fine with this manager. Our personalities just clashed and before I had the sense to quit, things got very bad there. But it didn't mean she was toxic to everybody.
And I won't sugarcoat it. If I'm feeling pressured and disliked, I can be a toxic person myself.
When I think of mean people, I think of bullies and those who feel like they need to control me. My dad was a bully, so basically I've dealt with bullies all my life. They really don't bother me that much because I know how to handle them.
Evil, now, evil is something else. The most awful thing about evil people is how absolutely ordinary they look.
I feel like I've met evil twice in my life. The only way I can describe it is that when I saw these people the first time, the hair on the back of my neck went up. I had instant antipathy for both of them and I couldn't for the life of me tell you what triggered me.
I found out later that one person (young teenager who came in to take money out of his parents' bank account) was allowed to pretty much do as he pleased since he threatened his parents with harm when they tried to stand up to him. I only waited on him the one time I saw him. That was enough for me.
The other person was an older man who used to come into the convenience store where I worked. I saw him often and for some reason, I hated him on sight. I found out later he was arrested when there was a warrant issued to him in connection with child porn.
I can't say I haven't met any other evil people. I just reacted to those two. But I'll never forget the chills that went down my back seeing either of those two. I don't know anything about them except what I just posted, but I know they were evil.
I personally believe there is a big difference between people being mean, being toxic or being evil. I think some people can be all three, but most people are one of those three.
I was just telling a friend of mine this morning about things that went down at a job I worked at. Put all together, it was obvious to both of us that I had a very toxic manager. But here's the thing. She was toxic to me and because of her, I had a hard time working there. Some people had the same hard time I did, yet other people got along fine with this manager. Our personalities just clashed and before I had the sense to quit, things got very bad there. But it didn't mean she was toxic to everybody.
And I won't sugarcoat it. If I'm feeling pressured and disliked, I can be a toxic person myself.
When I think of mean people, I think of bullies and those who feel like they need to control me. My dad was a bully, so basically I've dealt with bullies all my life. They really don't bother me that much because I know how to handle them.
Evil, now, evil is something else. The most awful thing about evil people is how absolutely ordinary they look.
I feel like I've met evil twice in my life. The only way I can describe it is that when I saw these people the first time, the hair on the back of my neck went up. I had instant antipathy for both of them and I couldn't for the life of me tell you what triggered me.
I found out later that one person (young teenager who came in to take money out of his parents' bank account) was allowed to pretty much do as he pleased since he threatened his parents with harm when they tried to stand up to him. I only waited on him the one time I saw him. That was enough for me.
The other person was an older man who used to come into the convenience store where I worked. I saw him often and for some reason, I hated him on sight. I found out later he was arrested when there was a warrant issued to him in connection with child porn.
I can't say I haven't met any other evil people. I just reacted to those two. But I'll never forget the chills that went down my back seeing either of those two. I don't know anything about them except what I just posted, but I know they were evil.
Interesting comment. This whole topic is so interesting, so confusing.
You say the evil people looked ordinary yet something warned you that they were evil. I wonder what it was.
And what you said about toxic people makes sense to me -- any of us can become "toxic" if we feel the other person dislikes us, or some kind of tension.
I know I have acted toxic in some situations, where things were very frustrating. Anyone can get angry, maybe for a good reason. But then we can become irrational.
One person, who knows both me and Mr. Madd (my recent problem relationship that I posted about) said the two of us just hate each other. But I don't think that was true. I did not hate Mr. Madd. And just before it all blew up, I thought we were getting along great.
I know that Mr. Madd gets angry easily over little things. And can stay angry at someone for a long time. But I never saw him angry at his wife. And he seems very friendly and probably gets along with some people.
I don't know what if anything I did wrong. We had split up for a while, and when we got back together I thought I was trying everything I could think of to not make him angry.
Maybe I reminded him of someone he hated in the past. But that would not explain why he wanted to play music with me, and at times he seemed to like me a lot.
Mr. Madd and I definitely did NOT hate each other, as that person said. I think maybe he was frustrated at not being able to completely control me.
Most of my social life depends on playing music with friends. Mr. Madd really hated that. Even though, of course, he thought he should be able to.
No, I don't think she isn't ready to hear you. I think she can hear and understand what you said, but doesn't agree with it.
//////
In my opinion, if Sonic Spork experienced it the way she described, you can't really doubt her because you weren't there.
Sonic_Spork said clearly that she was reading something other than what I tried to explain I meant. I think you are also. In no way have I ever misbelieved that her experience was anything other than what she said it was. She said she was victimized for eighteen years of her life and she sounds angry about it. Who wouldn't be?
I think you both believe that I am advocating trying to change or be kind to a bully and I'm not. I've been trying, in an apparently too subtle manner, to share something that has helped me to heal from that kind of situation. Just sharing; not discounting or demanding.
I'm sorry that we are not able to communicate about this but it happens sometimes. We're not presently on the same wavelength.
In sexual assault, we say there is a continuum from the minor such as flashing or making obscene phone calls to a lingerie shop to the major such as rape and murder. Hence we might say that those who do are evil to some extent.
Hence, I often find that for many, they are meanies to some extent. It is basically an attitude of "the rules don't apply to me" and it goes on from there. I find this often in conceal carry where they won't (or at least they say they won't) obey the 30.06 sign because to them, "concealed means concealed' and it ain't no one else's business. I sort of get a kick out of it because when it comes to guns and civilians, the phrase of "law abiding citizen" is often added into it. Well, how can one be a law abiding citizen if they decide they know better than some laws and won't obey them?
Further, I do not accept that professionally I believe one way but personally I believe another. If my two beliefs don't match, then I am in the wrong profession. Yet, that seems acceptable from the lowly citizen to the lofty politician.
Finally, two sayings. Remember "Heathers"? Of "Why do you have to be such a Mega Bi*ch?"......"Because I can be."
And then there is that I never want someone to say to me, "Why do you have to be so mean?" for to say that to me would hurt, would hurt a lot.
Plausibly, what causes me pain is pleasurable for another.
Plausibly, what causes me pain is pleasurable for another.
Yes. That is another reason we can't ever get this all figured out.
I could think I am being so nice and considerate towards someone, and that could **** them off!
It takes good psychic abilities (which I happen to think we all have to some degree) to get along with people in general. But sometimes nothing works.
I had a job where a co-worker who was half my age was bullying me. He was trying to convince the manager I was stupid and no good at my job.
I did everything I could think of. Being nice, being assertive, working harder. One time I told him off for being so awfully nasty to me -- but I got in trouble, not him.
Most of the terribly behaved people I've encountered, barring those with dx'd disorders, have had quite a bit in common behind their behavior.
For the most part, they have overwhelmingly been people, who, for various reasons, experience a good deal of insecurity, and are generally primed to throw others under the bus before they, themselves get thrown under the bus. There is a very prevalent "be a dick to others before somebody has a chance to be a dick to you" mentality.
This is what I'm more familiar with, than someone who is full-blown evil. Although I DO believe there are people out there, who ARE full-blown evil. You read about them in the news. But I don't think I know anyone to that extreme.
I work with a lady who seems to operate by the bolded part above. That seems to be her mentality. It's manifested quite a few times.
1. She works in the accounting dept. Several years ago, a man in that dept died, and she trashed talked him to anyone who would listen. He wasn't a terrible person...I don't know how or why he was on her sh*t list...but she never had anything nice to say about him, and she was very vocal about it.
2. One time, her husband inherited some gold jewelry from an uncle. She took the jewelry and sold it and used the money for botox injections. She never told her husband about it. She said he'd never miss it.
3. On her birthday, her grown son had flowers delivered to work. They were beautiful roses. When she came to the front desk to pick them up, I said something about how beautiful they were. She said "I guess". Then she went on to tell me that giving flowers takes no imagination, and that he wasn't even trying.
4. She'd been complaining for awhile, how her work isn't appreciated by the company. Well, she recently got outstanding employee of the quarter, AND she got a promotion, which came with a hefty raise. However, that promotion and raise came at the expense of everyone else on the accounting team. They got NO raise at all.
I generally avoid her. I'm polite and I'm friendly, but I don't go out of my way to talk with her. She's a sour person.
Yes. That is another reason we can't ever get this all figured out.
I could think I am being so nice and considerate towards someone, and that could **** them off!
It takes good psychic abilities (which I happen to think we all have to some degree) to get along with people in general. But sometimes nothing works.
I had a job where a co-worker who was half my age was bullying me. He was trying to convince the manager I was stupid and no good at my job.
I did everything I could think of. Being nice, being assertive, working harder. One time I told him off for being so awfully nasty to me -- but I got in trouble, not him.
Since my relationships have been far and few inbetween, the energy of how I relate to a lover gets DUMPED directly into how I relate to people. A Prince Vultan like explosion or the office cheerleader.
I suppose I get off on it......in a way.
THE OTHER THING IS that I am forever looking for ways to reduce my stress (reduce my blood pressure), so getting mad, being bad, being mean doesn't serve me. It's like the landing party in ST:TNG "The Royale" of the brains (Data), the brawn (Worf), and the charm (Riker). "When the train comes in, everyone rides.". That's me, the charm, and it pleases me to be like that.
I am trying to not talk about Mr. Madd to friends, or else to say very little. I could actually write a book about him, having seen him once a week or more for two years.
But if I complain about him, that could seem like malicious gossip, and could make me look like a toxic person.
When someone asks why we split up, I might just say "He decided I'm not good enough to play with him." Some will interpret that as sarcasm, some might take it literally. Either way, it's an explanation that needs no further explaining.
I'm glad I got to talk about it here. If we don't tell anyone about a bad experience, it can stick in our brains.
In general, bad meanies don't want us to feel good about ourselves. If we express anything that seems like pride, that could set them off. So I always try really hard to suppress anything that could be taken as bragging. But sometimes we have to talk about ourselves and it would be crazy to only talk about our weaknesses.
But it's so important, I think, to avoid triggering envy in others. Even the nicest people feel envy.
I think I understand, Sonic_Spork. You're mad as heck. You've stepped out of the situation but you haven't stopped fighting the fight yet. Fight on until you don't need to do it any more by all means. Healing takes time.
I'm not talking about sympathy or compassion but I don't think you're ready to hear what I'd like to tell you. We're speaking two different languages to each other.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lodestar
Sonic_Spork said clearly that she was reading something other than what I tried to explain I meant. I think you are also. In no way have I ever misbelieved that her experience was anything other than what she said it was. She said she was victimized for eighteen years of her life and she sounds angry about it. Who wouldn't be?
I think you both believe that I am advocating trying to change or be kind to a bully and I'm not. I've been trying, in an apparently too subtle manner, to share something that has helped me to heal from that kind of situation. Just sharing; not discounting or demanding.
I'm sorry that we are not able to communicate about this but it happens sometimes. We're not presently on the same wavelength.
Anger is not quite the right word. Frustration feels more accurate. And quite definitely it is far, far more about the situation and not really aimed at you, though it is being expressed here.
I'm sure that I would feel it less if I truly no longer had to interact with him, and it's mellowed tremendously as my need to interact with the ex has diminished, but sometimes I still do have to because we still have sons needing parenting, and it is a job we are both committed to. In a more distant and abstract sense, having a general mindset that people are the product of their lives and that you can't really put "blame" per se on such an individual, makes excellent sense. I agree, and in fact I really am not very interested in things like blame and fault.
If I felt "angry" as you say, I think I would be wishing harm on him. I do not. I wish he could find a way to be happy. I don't have a lot of faith that it is possible, but I wish he could find peace. Go live a fulfilling life that doesn't involve me, that would be awesome! I would get zero joy or satisfaction from, say, hearing that something bad had befallen him.
I'm frustrated because what you describe of trying to help or save someone who has come from a bad history and is playing out bad scripts...there will be times when a person does not have the power to alter someone's worldview or behavior patterns. And just being involved in proximity with them allows ongoing harm. Someone with an antisocial personality disorder, a sociopath or a narcissist...you can give them everything you've got and it won't heal them, they'll just take more until you either escape or die. What you said in the post I quoted before, I think that where there's abuse cycles, gaslighting, and the way abuse victims often blame themselves for the abuse they've received...your message can very easily be taken by someone in that situation, as a harmful one.
A person needs to save themselves first and foremost. And ultimately, the one person we've got the most power to save anyways, is our own self. No amount of forgiveness, compassion, help, will save anyone who is not interested in changing or receiving your help meaningfully. One should know when to walk away.
Toxic could be a better word to describe a connection, a relationship between two people where harm is happening, rather than a label for a human being. Unless maybe that person's programming leads to toxicity in all of their dealings, and they defensively refuse to change. But that is how I'm defining "toxic" anyhow, pervasive harmful words, thoughts, actions, that are lasting, ongoing. Harmful to the person doing them, and those they relate to. Destructive.
Mean, to me, is just behavior. Could even be a fleeting thing. You can be mean without really intending to be. I said snarky comments that made 5 people laugh, and hurt the feelings of a 6th. If I am supposed to be a caring person, to Human #6 in the group, and I disregarded them to make a joke, that was pretty mean.
The intersection of these two things, that I believe is where you find bullies, lifelong adult bullies.
being approached by strangers with 'expectations' and then verbally/physically abused for
not giving them something that belongs to me 'right away'--because i am 'not supposed' to have a say about that. a lot of it has been about forced "socializing" or extreme "sweetness
and light" that raises a "red flag" to me. ecchh!!
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
That is another reason we can't ever get this all figured out.
