psychology of being female in a "traditional" job.... (aunt, men)

[TashaPosh]

Originally Posted by gentlearts

This being said, there are some nurses who seem to gravitate towards partners “who need fixing”. Ive heard that the highest divorce rates are police and nurses. In my own life I know a very smart and beautiful nurse, who is excellent at her job, about to get her Masters, and very competent in every way, except for picking men.

I don't really think it's because they are nurses tho....I think some women are bad at picking men & some are good at it...same for the guys. Self esteem, how you were raised & other stuff.

Divorce rate with nurses & cops may be more to do with night shifts. I work days...luckily...so I don't have that problem. Divorce can happen for all kinds of reasons....not because of being a nurse.

[PriscillaVanilla]

Originally Posted by TashaPosh

All of us can be independent....valuable....smart! I thought shaming women went out yrs. ago....but the really disturbing part is most of the shaming seems to come from other women. I always thought other women were our biggest advocates....turns out, not really, IMO..

You're right, most of the shaming seems to come from other women.

[PriscillaVanilla]

Originally Posted by fleetiebelle

Yeah, I don't know that I've ever encountered people who look down on nursing (or teaching, etc.) they're important jobs.

There are, unfortunately, people who look down on any job that's not traditionally considered a "High Status" occupation.

[TashaPosh]

Originally Posted by rodentraiser

On the other hand, when I've been in classes where all the students were men (physics and chemistry) and I don't make myself out to be the helpless female, I get treated as an equal. That was such a common thing that even now when a man throws some antiquated statement at me, like a woman's duty is to have kids, I sort of goggle for a minute to see if I actually heard him right because it's so unexpected.

Hi Roden...I would love to know what college you went to...or when... that you were the *only* female in your chemistry class. This really is shocking to me....because I took so much science for my degree (BSN)...microbiology, biology, chemistry, anatomy & physiology! At least half...if not more than half...were other females in ALL of them. None of us were "helpless"....we learned the same material and had to pass the same exams & finals....like every other class in every college. I can't imagine any college anywhere you would be the *only* female but the stereotype of the "helpless" female in a science class by herself is not one I have even been exposed to before..........but it does sync perfectly to my thread & stereotypes of nurses, too.

[rodentraiser]

Originally Posted by TashaPosh

Hi Roden...I would love to know what college you went to...or when... that you were the *only* female in your chemistry class. This really is shocking to me....because I took so much science for my degree (BSN)...microbiology, biology, chemistry, anatomy & physiology! At least half...if not more than half...were other females in ALL of them. None of us were "helpless"....we learned the same material and had to pass the same exams & finals....like every other class in every college. I can't imagine any college anywhere you would be the *only* female but the stereotype of the "helpless" female in a science class by herself is not one I have even been exposed to before..........but it does sync perfectly to my thread & stereotypes of nurses, too.

There were 3 community colleges around the San Jose area and my chemistry class was in one and I took the physics class at another.

I took the chemistry class in the early 80s, not sure exactly what year. We started with me and two other girls and they were, indeed, the helpless ones. They dropped out after only a couple of weeks.

My best friend's mother was a chemistry teacher and so I stuck it out and ended up learning a lot. I still have my chemistry book from that class. I remember that class and the physics one specifically because I never felt talked down to by the teachers or the other students (older white male teacher in chemistry and a younger black teacher in physics). The teachers didn't go out of their way to pad corners for anyone either.

The physics class I took in 1989. The teacher used to come in on Saturdays for those of us who needed extra help. There were about four or five of us that were there consistently. I had a lot of trouble because I had such a hard time with calculus, which I was taking at the same time.

For what it's worth, I also took court reporting classes in the early 90s. At one time we had one male student in the class. I still remember one time when the teacher laid out an impossible situation for us and asked what we would do. One girl spoke up and said she'd cry. The boy then asked, "What would I do then?" That sure brought home to me the differences between how men and women saw themselves in the face of adversity.

I'm glad that hasn't been your experience.

I would also like to point out that while in the hospital for an aneurysm, I had both male and female nurses. I can't describe how nice all of them were and how comfortable they made me feel. I don't think being a nurse has anything to do with being male or female. I think it's solely on how empathetic and caring they can be and how safe they can make you feel in a hospital. I can't imagine having to deal with nurses who were mean and petty, especially to their fellow coworkers.

[TashaPosh]

Originally Posted by rodentraiser

I think it's solely on how empathetic and caring they can be and how safe they can make you feel in a hospital. I can't imagine having to deal with nurses who were mean and petty, especially to their fellow coworkers.

Being a better person...makes someone a better nurse...or doctor....or teacher... It doesn't just apply to nurses or women in "traditional jobs"...because nurses don't always deal with patients directly & it is much more important we know what we are doing, what meds we are giving, how to manage our team, what IVs we are calculating too...BUT I so agree it makes us better if we are caring & empathatic too. I also don't think teachers make good teachers, or engineers make good engineers, or doctors make good doctors...IF they are mean & petty. It doesn't make for a good human, so how can you be good at any job? It applies for both genders & across A N Y job...not just "traditional jobs" (but this psychology fits my thread so perfectly)

The best nurses are empathetic & caring....& smart too! We have to take a lot of science to receive a bachelor's degree in applied science in nursing (& pass a 2 day examination to get our license). We have to carry a higher GPA to get accepted into the clinical program, too. This is before any other available certifications or advanced degrees. We aren't helpless...except maybe around a snake. Lol.

P.S....I'm happy you are well, Roden!

[CorporateCowboy]

Originally Posted by rodentraiser

I took the chemistry class in the early 80s, not sure exactly what year. We started with me and two other girls and they were, indeed, the helpless ones. They dropped out after only a couple of weeks.

My best friend's mother was a chemistry teacher and so I stuck it out and ended up learning a lot. I still have my chemistry book from that class. I remember that class and the physics one specifically because I never felt talked down to by the teachers or the other students (older white male teacher in chemistry and a younger black teacher in physics). The teachers didn't go out of their way to pad corners for anyone either.

The physics class I took in 1989. The teacher used to come in on Saturdays for those of us who needed extra help. There were about four or five of us that were there consistently. I had a lot of trouble because I had such a hard time with calculus, which I was taking at the same time.

For what it's worth, I also took court reporting classes in the early 90s. At one time we had one male student in the class. I still remember one time when the teacher laid out an impossible situation for us and asked what we would do. One girl spoke up and said she'd cry. The boy then asked, "What would I do then?" That sure brought home to me the differences between how men and women saw themselves in the face of adversity.

Probably off topic a bit (or maybe not) - I’m curious as to what led you to court reporting in the 90’s from science classes in the 80’s? Congrats, however, on being the only girl who survived your chemistry and physics classes!

[wasel]

Originally Posted by TashaPosh

All of us can be independent....valuable....smart!

See, here's the thing. I am old enough to be your mother, and growing up in the 70s-80s I was NEVER made to feel I as though I wasn't "independent, valuable and smart." And I had traditional parents and my mom had part time jobs that were traditionally heavily female (well one of the jobs was pretty much 50-50 male to female.) And those were the days when society didn't overtly make efforts to encourage girls into "math, science, medicine, law" etc.


I gravitated toward a career based on my skill set and what I enjoyed. In the middle of my career (30s) I ended up in a very male workplace where I was the only female. The guys were very tough, and quite frankly they didn't see me as professionally skilled as they were mostly because I didn't have the level of experience they had. Even with that, I never lamented that I wasn't "supported" -- because I didn't see myself as needing them for support. My confidence about my job was all up to me and my skills, and if I couldn't cut it, I couldn't cut it.


I eventually went out on my own and started my own business. Anecdotally, I do think women in corporate America are much harder to work with. I also think that women tend to get at bit "attitudinal" toward attractive women.


But I just think that women in your generation have created a self-fulfilling prophecy that "worth" and "value" comes from how others assess your job. And that "maleness" is the standard to work toward.

Originally Posted by gouligann

TRY being a stay at home Mom, then not returning to work after the kids are grown. You should see the shocked disdain of some people when they have asked me where I work and I tell them that I don't. It's like they have tried to make me feel like I am lazy or unimportant, or I am a freeloader on my husband, etc. My answer: I am fortunate that I don't HAVE to work. Hubby makes well enough to support the both of us like back in the dark ages. It still hurts that someone would think I was inferior to them because I didn't work.

One of my best friends and I are both childless, and she is SO judgemental of SAHMs that it's embarrassing. I remind her, "well, what are your days off?" and when she answers I remind her that moms have no days off.


As for no longer having kids at home and "not working" -- I'm childless anyway but right now I'm in a slow period of work (I'm self employed) so I have a LOT of downtime these days. I use it to make good dinners (that save us money), mop the floors, take care of things for both of our elderly parents, and take our dog to the park for exercise.

Originally Posted by TashaPosh

A few myths cleared... I have a bachelor's degree from a state university, a BSN. It's not "nursing school". I also have additional critical care certifications...& I am an RCIS. I don't ...(& most nurses don't) do bedpans or ADL tasks performed by other members of the team... a team that is usually managed by an RN. RN's are paid well...many of us can easily make over six figures (awesome benefits too) with certifications & experience...& there are all kinds of specialties & potential for advancement. As an RCIS, I am no longer even "on the floor"...

You are sort of representing the problem here. It shouldn't matter how hard or easy your education was. You having to "clear up myths" is feeding into the whole problem that you are writing about! Why does it matter if you went to a 2-year community college (see below) or 8 years of med school? Why does it matter whether you are managing procedures or emptying bedpans? The job still has "value" and is "legitimate" and if you like it that's all that matters. Defending yourself by providing credentials feeds into all this crap.

Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth

Good heavens, a 4-year degree! I can't imagine why women doctors and others are getting on your case! I was thinking it might be a 2-year CC degree. 4 years is a lot of science, chemistry, etc. That's very challenging, and is just as legitimate as other demanding degrees. In fact, it's a STEM field, a field (STEM) that's been aggressively pushed on the current generation of college students.

See my comment above.

Originally Posted by gentlearts

You know what? I’m a traditional old woman. I’ve seen many changes and I’m fine with them. All I ask is that the modern, lesbian, or otherwise, do not lose sight of the fact that we women of traditional expectations and mores, do not deserve any less respect than you.

Agreed!

Originally Posted by sas318

Feminism is the problem. It's highlighting the unspoken hierarchy in society even more. When they tell you to aim higher or be a leader, it makes you feel like your own regular job is much lower, so can you feel imagine how janitors, housekeepers, gardeners, elementary school teachers, administrative assistants, and daycare workers feel?

Yeah, I wonder who is advocating that they are "worthy."

[TashaPosh]

Originally Posted by wasel

You are sort of representing the problem here. It shouldn't matter how hard or easy your education was. You having to "clear up myths" is feeding into the whole problem that you are writing about! Why does it matter if you went to a 2-year community college (see below) or 8 years of med school? Why does it matter whether you are managing procedures or emptying bedpans? The job still has "value" and is "legitimate" and if you like it that's all that matters. Defending yourself by providing credentials feeds into all this crap.

No...ofc it matters, because I put in the work, time & study to earn the degree & the job. False ideas of what a nurse is....& feeling it's Ok to mix us up c/nurse's aids, LVN's, tecnicians & other jobs because we are "female" & it is so nice "we care" *IS* the problem! It's the old psychology of what people think about traditionally female jobs...because everyone *thinks* we are not smart & we just went to "nurse's training" to wait it out until we get married..Lol. It's *NOT TRUE*. The ADN degree (2 yr associate degree) is becoming scarce... most hospitals require you to finish your education & obtain a BSN if you want to hang on to your job....or be hired in the 1st place. Would a female doctor want to be known for emptying bedpans & yesss...it happens now & then out of necessity....right place right time...just as it does for staff RN's when they are passing meds. No one would tell a female doctor it's "Ok" ....it shouldn't matter as long as you love your job...Lol. So why do you think it's Ok to tell me.....my credentials, education & job title "doesn't matter"? It's because nursing is traditionally female job & the false thinking & stereotypes are still out there....& acceptable...even long after we aren't the only females in science classes anymore. Many technicians & aids...who are responsible for bedpans & ADL's...are men because of the heavy lifting involved. It's an important job ....but do you have any idea how often a male aid is called "doctor"? It's not that people make a mistake....it's the general thoughts & assumptions about us as females & nurses that your post brought up! Thank you...I *do* love being an RN & my new job too.

[TashaPosh]

Originally Posted by wasel

I also think that women tend to get at bit "attitudinal" toward attractive women.

ITA with this...