Men are expected to be ‘strong silent types’ — and it’s breaking them,. (parent, girls)

[NJBoy3]

Honesty is the best policy..

I have always strived to represent myself as I am.

As for my relationships with women I have come to learn to be a good listener and not try to fix things.

[Ralph_Kirk]

Originally Posted by coschristi

Good God. From the link:

So that’s masculine? Abusive men are now representative of what masculinity is? What is described above doesn’t even sound remotely masculine, manly or strong.

Then the article goes on to explain that essentially; dude’s dad was a draft-dodging Boomer. Now it’s making sense. Didn’t anybody warn you guys that’s what was going to happen with your social de-evolution? I was just a kid in 1981 but I definitely seem to remember the men in my family (they were real ones) & the women (none were submissive) talking about how dumb the societal changes were.

Oh yeah, back to the link: um no. He followed in the footsteps of exactly just one generation of men who came before him. My white American dad who was born in 1941, was serving in Japan, where I was born, during the Vietnam war & went to school with the GI Bill when he returned & has provided for & protected us every day of his life. I never have even heard him say a four-letter word in front of my mom let alone to my mom. Now that; is a man.

Before we disparage masculinity, it might help to know what it is.

Well, I'm a Boomer (although not a draft-dodging one...I enlisted). I was raising my son in 1981 as a single father. We hugged, he spent lots of time in my lap. I bathed him, took him the zoo where we ate french fries and dodged bees.

We watched The Wonder Years together, which was all about not growing up like your father.

And I didn't know any fathers who were putting their sons through all that hard-core crap. Maybe that happened a decade or two later, or maybe there were some fringe reactionaries, but we were the fathers who grew up in the hippy-dippy sixties. We're helicopter parents, participation trophy parents.

How was it the same generation who raised snowflakes also raised all these hard-core macho men?

I'm not convinced.

[Phil75230]

Originally Posted by reed067

Say Henry Rollins.

For those who don't know, Rollins is a performance artist, made his name with the 80s punk band Black Flag, though I never heard of him until the mid-90s. BTW, for those whom it matters -- in physical appearances, Rollins isn't exactly the proverbial "97 lb. weakling".

This myth of the seemingly inalienable right to dominance and control perpetrated by men, especially by white males, has myriad catastrophic downsides.
These standards — and postures many American males contort themselves to — are not without consequence. Beyond misplaced anger, feelings of inadequacy and hopelessness, the men who hold their emotions in check — like a stress position used to induce confession — sometimes break. White American males — mostly middle-age — accounted for 70% of suicides in 2017.

In a lot of crowds, it's more than just a right - it's an obligation. Certainly it's an obligation not to appear weak and dominated. It's as if strength and forcefulness (at least personally, if not necessarily physically) is the main standard for measuring a male's worth for even the basics of dignity and respect (i.e., not getting hit with indignity and disrespect). I think that's what's really driving this phenomenon, especially when a lot of people - even fairly sophisticated upper middle class ones - will look down on someone for being defeated and dominated for that reason alone, especially a male.


https://www.latimes.com/books/la-ca-...620-story.html

Has a child I was told as I grew up not to cry or show to much emotion as people/ women as a whole whole would see me as weak. My wife is having a lot of health issues and I don’t let her see how much it weighs on me. Even though she has said that it’s good for a man to show such things, I know by doing so it would make things worse on her. I know that I’m not the only man going though rough patches where showing emotions are some what taboo.

And this is in the L.A. area - presumably not a place very hostile to unmanly men (although I understand there's still a lot of body-appearance narcissism there - at least in the city's trendier areas). This "don't cry, be a man" is MUCH worse in rural areas - especially in the Inter-Mountain West, South, and parts of the Midwest. The culture in these areas holds on so strongly to it that simply being a decent-acting, rule-abiding, kind-hearted, empathetic person is demoted to either a boring but admirable trait for a strong man at best, a consolation prize for the weak at worst. They call this being a "normal, decent, self-respecting man with strong backbone", but in fact it's completely inhibiting their ability to grow as a person.

The culture they grow up in further reinforces it - not just blue collar suburbs and small towns but even in middle-to-upper-middle class suburbs this is a problem. The sooner we outgrow this uncritical glorification of machismo and contempt for weakness, the better off all people will be - women as well as men.

[fleetiebelle]

Originally Posted by Phil75230

For those who don't know, Rollins is a performance artist, made his name with the 80s punk band Black Flag, though I never heard of him until the mid-90s. BTW, for those whom it matters -- in physical appearances, Rollins isn't exactly the proverbial "97 lb. weakling".

I heard Rollins speak several times, and he's very self-aware and in touch with his emotions, as well. I don't think he's a great example of toxic masculinity.

[CorporateCowboy]

Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth

No. Point of psychobabble; men = victims of society's mores and stereotypes. Except his example doesn't apply. His example is something anyone would do for a loved one. Everyone puts up a brave front for an ailing family member or friend.

A brave front is different than being emotionally intimate with a girlfriend or wife. It doesn’t mean he need fall to pieces and have a breakdown, but honest communication is vital to any relationship. That said, one would ‘protect’ an ailing child in a completely different way than how one communicates with an adult significant other - so there is no comparison.

[Ruth4Truth]

Originally Posted by coschristi

Good God. From the link:

So that’s masculine? Abusive men are now representative of what masculinity is? What is described above doesn’t even sound remotely masculine, manly or strong.

Then the article goes on to explain that essentially; dude’s dad was a draft-dodging Boomer. Now it’s making sense. Didn’t anybody warn you guys that’s what was going to happen with your social de-evolution? I was just a kid in 1981 but I definitely seem to remember the men in my family (they were real ones) & the women (none were submissive) talking about how dumb the societal changes were.

Oh yeah, back to the link: um no. He followed in the footsteps of exactly just one generation of men who came before him. My white American dad who was born in 1941, was serving in Japan, where I was born, during the Vietnam war & went to school with the GI Bill when he returned & has provided for & protected us every day of his life. I never have even heard him say a four-letter word in front of my mom let alone to my mom. Now that; is a man.

Before we disparage masculinity, it might help to know what it is.

Must be a slow news week for the LA Times. All of this is so far behind the times (by multiple generations at this point), and so distorted and exaggerated, it makes them look desperate to push sales.

[Sonic_Spork]

Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth

I don't think the OP's example is a good one, of how the expectation or need to be the strong silent type is exclusive to men. The OP doesn't show his distress to his ailing loved one, in order not to upset her further. This is the same as any parent would do with a seriously ill child, for example, or with their own parents, who may be life-threateningly ill or experiencing sudden decline. Everyone hides their worry or grief in such circumstances. This isn't about men.

Originally Posted by Mikala43

I think that now, more than other times in history, men have an expanded realm of who (how) they can be and still be socially acceptable (women too). Today's young adults can choose from a multitude of acceptable lifestyles without anyone else batting an eye.

I think the problem for the OP is his home is not a safe place, and home should always be place to be safe and be yourself.

I agree very much with these two statements. OP has issues that are not gendered in nature, that have more to do with having an unstable spouse and difficult circumstances. OP, I am so sorry you're going through all of this.

As for showing emotion not "being ok" I really do think that some of the reality of it, hasn't a damn thing to do with gender. If you are a kid on the schoolyard, and you cry easily and show too much emotion, bullies will target you. I am female; it totally happened to me. Don't think for a second that all girls have a sweet cocoon of loving female friends around them to offer comfort and care. We don't. The popular kids have more support and friendship, and those of us who grew up socially awkward, had to struggle with hiding our feelings lest they be used against us.

As an adult, it does not matter if someone is male or female, if you dump your emotional struggles on someone who is not in an invested relationship with you, or someone who doesn't have the ability (like the OP's wife) to give loving support, then you're not going to get good results. People who are overly emotional in inappropriate ways or too often with no "reason" are seen as crazy, difficult, volatile. I had a woman coworker who was a former addict, who told people she barely knew about her stay in rehab and other very personal things, and would have outright breakdowns at her desk at least a few times a week. She got fired, years ago. You just cannot DO that. People expect adult humans to move through the world with our sht together to some degree, male or female.

But everyone should have supportive connections where they can be vulnerable.

Where I do see a difference is that male and female friend dynamics can differ. I see men getting together and only after a lot of drinking do the walls come down. Some are more demonstrative than others. Anger is more accepted than sorrow or sadness, though I have seen male friend groups support one another through divorce, loss, etc. But women share information more effusively. Female social groups often share every detail of everything in life, more or less constantly. Men don't always do this. I think that by and large, men are more apt to either isolate themselves, or expect 100% of their social support to come from a romantic partner as adults.

I think that the only way in which any of this is relevant to any kind of "toxic masculinity" is when you get into statistics on who commits the most violence against themselves and others. Men commit murders and suicides more. Is this a direct result of bottling up emotions? Or is it very simply that males are raised with more easy access to physical solutions to their problems, physical recourse, or with fathers modeling physical acts of punishment against them? Is it all the anger, or the feeling that an angry person is able to justifiably be violent? Because I know that I've pretty much lost my ability to feel or express anger in any kind of a normal way, because as a woman, it's merely "cute" if I am angry no matter how justified. I mean, what can I do with it? Stand there and make faces? I'm not big or strong or dangerous. My anger is meaningless and makes me feel helpless. So I let it go, because what choice do I have? Now there have been times in my life, a few, when confronted with someone who was truly a repulsive POS, like say an animal abuser or child rapist, where if I'd been a big, strong, dangerous man, if I'd felt anything like a living weapon of any kind, let alone one fueled with testosterone, I'd have gone STRAIGHT to violence. I wanted to.

But, we live in a civilized society. To some extent...yeah, we all have to control ourselves most of the time.

[Mikala43]

Originally Posted by reed067

I tell my wife certain things and while I do show some of what is wearing on me it’s very little. Mostly because in my wife’s condition it becomes a contest for her. She’s always got it worse. Not saying that’s your husbands case, but how much of what wears on him does he show with anyone?
As a whole I think men tend to hold in more then they share.

In general I think men hold in more, but very general. Both of us have a tendency to hold it in for certain things, right now he is in pain, and not a peep from him (well some peeping because obviously I know about it), but I'm the same when I am in pain.

DH and I are the opposite of your relationship, we always give the other more consideration, we don't complain when we know the other is in pain, or stressed or whatever. Kinda a standard rule that both people cannot freak out at the same time, if one is, the other must be the sane one. It works for us.

[Gohangr]

I don't know what we are discussing exactly. men and women are the same. They have different physiology but this is only what evolution did. We KNOW how evolution works. We know that evolution comes from our adaptations to our environment and we are the first species who can affect their environment so much. We can literally control our evolution.
If we want to evolve into self-hating apes we can, and if we want to evolve into all loving apes we can.

It's not a matter of fate any more. We have free will. We shape the world around us. WAKE UP. Go outside and really feel the world. Enjoy the weather, be it sunny or rainy. Smile at people, even if they are grumpy. Understand how lucky you are for being alive. Shape the world with love, and you will live and a world of love.

Learn from the past, forgive yourself for your mistakes and forgive others for theirs.
If you don't like something in your life, literally take the decision NOW, make a plan(ask from help from your friends or family if you are scared or oblivious on how to start changing it) and change it.
Asking for help is free. Just be grateful when you receive it, cause a person showed you some love.

[Mightyqueen801]

I agree with others that it's not a man thing, although that's how it was presented to him growing up.

Telling children to stop being crybabies and mocking them when they cried was how I grew up. I so did not want to be a crybaby that by the time I was six, I had learned how to choke back tears and not show anyone when I was sad. Unfortunately, that year a same-age cousin who was a friend died, and I went in my room and used every ounce of strength I had to force myself not to cry, and it caused damage that affected me for decades as I walked through life without shedding tears. I had to actually re-learn how to cry, and that itself took years.

As some have already said on here, there's some balance involved. I am sorry you are going through this, OP, and be kind to yourself as you support your wife. You are allowed to feel what you feel.