Men are expected to be ‘strong silent types’ — and it’s breaking them,. (humans, father)

[CorporateCowboy]

Originally Posted by Gohangr

I don't know what we are discussing exactly. men and women are the same. They have different physiology but this is only what evolution did. We KNOW how evolution works. We know that evolution comes from our adaptations to our environment and we are the first species who can affect their environment so much. We can literally control our evolution.
If we want to evolve into self-hating apes we can, and if we want to evolve into all loving apes we can.

It's not a matter of fate any more. We have free will. We shape the world around us. WAKE UP. Go outside and really feel the world. Enjoy the weather, be it sunny or rainy. Smile at people, even if they are grumpy. Understand how lucky you are for being alive. Shape the world with love, and you will live and a world of love.

It’s not a question of physiology, fate or the weather lol - the thread is speaking to the cultural and social differences/expectations in men vs. women in the past/present. As with any environmental influence, there will be variables.

[homina12]

Men kill ourselves at rates that would be alarming if, well anyway, we kill ourselves a lot. White middle aged men kill themselves about 5 times as often as white middle aged women. Across age groups and races, men kill themselves about 3 times as often as women.

Men often have much less developed support networks than women. However, boys often have close friendships and a child's version of a social network quite similar to girls.

Somewhere along the way to becoming men, boys' emotional lives shrink. That seems to me a central tenet of masculinity, going it alone.

Once men establish that they can handle **** themselves, thank you very much, they kill themselves at disturbing rates.

I think something's going on here

[Mikala43]

Originally Posted by homina12

Men often have much less developed support networks than women. However, boys often have close friendships and a child's version of a social network quite similar to girls.

Somewhere along the way to becoming men, boys' emotional lives shrink. That seems to me a central tenet of masculinity, going it alone.

Once men establish that they can handle **** themselves, thank you very much, they kill themselves at disturbing rates.

I think something's going on here

I think you found the problem above. I know when it comes to being widowed, men have more problems (in general), because their spouse is emotional link, close friendship, social director, care taker, etc. Whereas women will normally have more close friendships that fulfill emotional needs.

Also, white culture does not have the same bonds that are maintained that you see with Hispanic, Hawaiian, and many other cultures, where families are close.

[Phil75230]

Originally Posted by fleetiebelle

I heard Rollins speak several times, and he's very self-aware and in touch with his emotions, as well. I don't think he's a great example of toxic masculinity.

I said he didn't look like a "97 lb weakling", a far different matter from saying he's toxically masculine. I'm only bringing this up because - unfortunately - even into adulthood, an amazing number of people judge a person by their superficial appearances. How else am I supposed to interpret so many people on this board bringing up physical/visual appearances so as to "prove" a point?

[steveklein]

Originally Posted by Sydney123

Men do this to one another. I don’t know one woman who thinks that a man’s showing emotion or vulnerability
makes them “weak”. And I believe that it’s men who keep perpetuating this myth. SMH!

Maybe not consciously, but I've got about 5000 years of data points on who women select as mates that run contrary to your assertion.

[Huckleberry3911948]

The assumption that white males own a monopoly on dominance and control sounds colorized and does not coincide with any stats I know

[Ralph_Kirk]

Originally Posted by homina12

Men kill ourselves at rates that would be alarming if, well anyway, we kill ourselves a lot. White middle aged men kill themselves about 5 times as often as white middle aged women. Across age groups and races, men kill themselves about 3 times as often as women.

And there is more than one cause for that. Part of it is pure testosterone, visible at very young ages.

Men often have much less developed support networks than women. However, boys often have close friendships and a child's version of a social network quite similar to girls.

Somewhere along the way to becoming men, boys' emotional lives shrink. That seems to me a central tenet of masculinity, going it alone.

I would argue that phenomenon is recent--really recent, no more than a generation--and particularly American.

Once men establish that they can handle **** themselves, thank you very much, they kill themselves at disturbing rates.

Actually, the events of the last 50 years in the US indicate that men can't handle themselves.

[Gohangr]

Originally Posted by CorporateCowboy

It’s not a question of physiology, fate or the weather lol - the thread is speaking to the cultural and social differences/expectations in men vs. women in the past/present. As with any environmental influence, there will be variables.

Men and women grew up in the same environment. The only difference is the physiology.
everything evolves. The human psychology is a part of that evolution. People are more resistant to stress nowadays. They are more empathic - more social in the broader sense. Human psychology is evolving thanks to the internet. People are getting the understanding and acceptance on a broad societal scale. People are looking past the differences and figuring out that everyone is the same.

It's not a question of physiology, fate or weather, you say and laugh. What we don't understand is a laughing matter I guess.
Anyone can say that with any environmental influence, there will be variables.
The point is to figure out what influences what. And to do that, you only need to compare and think.
you don't need any experiments. You need to see the effects of certain things on people and figure out what has caused them. Similar effects have similar causes.
Cause and effect is the most basic principle of the universe.

In my opinion, this is the best way to figure out how and why peoples' psychology differs.

This is my personal experience for the better part of my life. Even as a child I have been constantly trying to figure out why people react differently to the same things. I haven't studied psychology or anything.
I am just really interested in how everything works. (I guess it's the greek heritage coming out.)
The most apparent thing is that people are just now starting to understand their own feelings. They understand what they feel but not why. They aren't used to thinking and being emotional at the same time. "Men shouldn't cry", "women are too emotional" - Stop putting barriers and think freely.

Reason precedes emotions. If you think badly, you feel badly - not the other way around.
And if you understand this basic principle of psychology, you are on your way to feel better. You just have to think better.

Noone is evil, noone is at fault. Anyone can change and men are exactly the same as women - human beings. The only thing that matters is understanding and loving each other.

Don't rush to judge.

[Phil75230]

Originally Posted by Dwatted Wabbit

Toxic masculinity, white males. Please, give this a break. You have to know nothing to not know that almost all cultures encourage strong males.

That all cultures do it doesn't make it right. It's not a matter of what the majority of people or cultures think. It's a matter of whether there's any solid rationale for continuing it at the present time in a safe, stable, prosperous place -- i.e. middle to upper middle class USA (among other places/classes). In this case, contempt for the weak (what IMO this is ultimately really about, despite the focus on strength per se) serves no useful purpose in middle class America because the reason for that contempt no longer exists. This is not the Stone Age. Nor is it even 1867 Colorado or Montana or west Texas.

In today's environment, with modern levels of professional law enforcement and military, income, education, economic and technological development, and such, being weak is not the detriment to society our reptilian brainstem tells us it is. That itself makes such contempt useless. Even worse, there's other ways to contribute to society at a high-level that don't involve physical or personal strength - far too many to mention in this space. That makes shunning the weak worse than useless, but actually contrary to society's own best interests - namely by squelching talent because of low aptitude (strength) in a realm in which that aptitude (strength) is not an important component of success.

[Phil75230]

Originally Posted by TJenkins602

How about just be who you are and not worry about some image. No harm, no foul. If someone doesn't accept you...chances are, they weren't gonna accept you anyway.

Real men (and women) are authentic.

Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth

Bravo! Well said! *applause*

It's easy to say that when most men are at least adequately "manly" and/or "unflappable enough" to not suffer social scorn from those attitudes. However, not all men are like that, even assuming they are a minority. There's a whole can of worms that inhibit the more sensitive men from opening up about their feelings or problems.

First, it's that the majority (certainly well over 50% of cultural messages about this topic and quite likely over 50% of the people - male or female) scorn men expressing their emotions - to the point where they have less disrespect for a mildly criminal personality (even a lower-level non-violent felon) than they have for law-abiding men who are sensitive.

Second, the severity of the scorn is so great that people will automatically dismiss that person as deserving access to their informal information channels ("grapevines"), helping hands, and support when facing adversaries: not because the man did anything to deliberately hurt, harm, degrade, or break the trust of others but simply because he is weak - end of story.

Third, about sexual matters, it's pretty common for women to eschew a person simply because a man seems to be weak - sometimes being callous and cruel to him besides. That's the female equivalent of body-shaming or looks-shaming. If it's wrong to body shame or face shame women, then what makes it right to shame weak men? Unfortunately this is very deeply rooted in the general culture - although some types of groups are less bad about it than others.

With all this going on, it's no wonder that "be who you are" rings hollow to men for whom being who they are is either actually weak or easily construed by mainstream society as being weak. So they certainly have legitimate grounds for not being themselves, in a matter of speaking. It's just a different take on the saying "It's not paranoia if they're really out to get you" - in this case "It's not an illegitimate fear if they really are going to shun you for a trait you have".