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I agree that if women do not want to be looked at, they should not dress in such a way that "invites" looking.
However, although "just looking" is sometimes involuntary, leering, making lewd remarks, or making any kind of sexual advances is not!
I agree about lewd remarks or ‘sexual advances’ - completely inappropriate and potentially actionable (but not part of the general discussion as to what is ‘too much skin’ for a woman to show in and of itself). She may show skin or cleavage if she wants (and yes, we are going to look - and women most certainly know this).
Last edited by CorporateCowboy; 08-29-2019 at 06:06 PM..
As a man who has been guilty of ‘looking’ at cleavage (who hasn’t), women shouldn’t complain we happen to see it (or get distracted) if they present it on a platter, so to speak. It’s not appropriate in the office - yet women who break a professional dress code are often the first to complain a guy is inappropriately looking. Isn’t that the point of having corporate dress codes?
I myself have looked. And I've been caught. Whether women have complained about it, I can't say for certain, but I have come across women who didn't mind.
I myself have looked. And I've been caught. Whether women have complained about it, I can't say for certain, but I have come across women who didn't mind.
...out in public anyway.
We all look, especially if we find the woman attractive; I would suggest it’s impossible not to (unless we don’t find her attractive). Women know this (and, I would think, their whole idea is to be alluring - not that there is anything wrong with that in the right environment).
It's so funny that men's biological sexual nature is to "procure" a female for procreation. It's an involuntary biological drive.
Just because you're a "feminist" (as I am), doesn't negate the biology of heterosexual males.
Suggesting a man is attempting to ‘procure’ said female is taking it a step beyond the initial (biological) impulse simply to look at an attractive female. Anything beyond that is completely controllable (rather than ‘involuntary’). We aren’t procuring and impregnating women based on an involuntary biological drive to do so nor are we aroused by every woman we see with exposed cleavage on the street or in the office.
Suggesting a man is attempting to ‘procure’ said female is taking it a step beyond the initial (biological) impulse simply to look at an attractive female. Anything beyond that is completely controllable (rather than ‘involuntary’). We aren’t procuring and impregnating women based on an involuntary biological drive to do so nor are we aroused by every woman we see with exposed cleavage on the street or in the office.
Procuring or impregnating a woman is not a biological drive; rather, the desire for physical intimacy (sexual drive) is biological in nature (big difference) i.e. thinking about it or the impulse to look at an attractive woman, but actions are controllable including our ability to ‘think’ about who we want to ‘procure’ and whether or not we want to procreate, making it completely voluntary. It is what separates us from animals.
Looking at cleavage on a female at work all the way to procurement (based in biological drive) is not only a gigantic leap but completely irrational as well.
Procuring or impregnating a woman is not a biological drive; rather, the desire for physical intimacy (sexual drive) is biological in nature (big difference) i.e. thinking about it or the impulse to look at an attractive woman, but actions are controllable including our ability to ‘think’ about who we want to ‘procure’ and whether or not we want to procreate, making it completely voluntary.It is what separates us from animals.
Looking at cleavage on a female at work all the way to procurement (based in biological drive) is not only a gigantic leap but completely irrational as well.
Except humans are mammals (="animals").
We are socialized animals.
Anyway, women can and should do whatever they want, but to me, there is a time and place for "cleavage" and any kind of erotic wear in public. It just doesn't look well-mannered or professional.
It would be the same thing if a man wore short-shorts to work - it's just inappropriate and distracting.
Anyway, women can and should do whatever they want, but to me, there is a time and place for "cleavage" and any kind of erotic wear in public. It just doesn't look well-mannered or professional.
It would be the same thing if a man wore short-shorts to work - it's just inappropriate and distracting.
Common sense.
We agree there - it doesn’t belong in the workplace (as I stated in a previous post about women breaking dress codes or potential actionable behavior); but if a woman wants to show cleavage or skin beyond a dress code environment, nothing wrong with it. It’s meant to be alluring to men - and, of course, it’s likely we are going to look if we find the woman attractive.
I've always said... I am not the eyeball or thought police. I choose my clothing with my own needs in mind. I don't worry for one second what men or anybody else in general are going to think about it, unless I am dressing with a specific person in mind like "My boyfriend likes me in skirts, so for this day we're spending together, I will wear a nice skirt." I care what he thinks. I'm not invested in the opinions of random others. And I absolutely refuse to live my life around them.
Awareness of one's surroundings and situations, and social savvy, is far more powerful in terms of keeping yourself safe, than what you choose to wear, except insofar as whether it is tactical (can you run, if you have to? Conceal a weapon?) if you happen to be heading into a situation where that matters. I mean, I love my concerts and love to be on the front row, and there will be people smooshing up into me. I used to have an issue where a bigger, taller man would often drape himself over my shoulders and crush me, trying to get me to leave my spot so he could take it, or whatever. Since I was already being crushed and it was hot up there, this was really unpleasant. What's a short girl to do? So I made a vest. It's got foam spikes I crafted that come up a good 6 inches or more off my shoulders and curve backwards. They are not rigid, and cannot hurt anyone, but they look intimidating, and they definitely discourage guys from putting their arms over my shoulders and putting their weight on me like that. Tactical.
But worrying about what is showing and who is looking, in normal life? Psh, nah, I don't. And the thing is, guys often try to say, "I'm entitled to be obnoxious about it because you're inviting it by this or that"...it's the same "if you didn't want to get punched, you shouldn't have made me mad" argument that a person tries to use to justify bad behavior. Doesn't fly. You CAN help it. You chose not to. But I don't really care. If a guy lacks the social skills to understand where the line is crossed between an appropriate glance or look, and ogling, leering, or being inappropriate, then he is probably suffering negative social consequences, a lot more than I will from a brief encounter with him in the wild. After all, I get to leave. But wherever you go, there YOU are. Good luck, with an attitude like that. People who can't or won't take responsibility for their actions don't usually have good outcomes.
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