Could 'shame' be considered a useful tool or feeling?

[finalmove]

Originally Posted by anononcty

I see where intentional shamming can be an issue or a form of bullying. Or some had some really messed up experiences/things happen to them. But can't 'shame' be used as a usefull sign/tool for motivation to change or that one might be doing something wrong?

It seems just commenting or pointing out something negative about or to someone is now considered shamming when in fact it's nothing but a comment/opinion.


A person shouldn't feel shame for not having a job but they shouldn't they feel some shame for wanting many of the optional benefits a job brings like money to buy a car, booze or stuff in general? To me if an unemployed person is constantly borrowing or seeking favors shouldn't they feel shame or at least can't a person bring up the topic of shame or guilt. I've seen where some get offended for just saying or asking Why isn't that person ashamed or Where's their pride/guilt?


I'm not talking about berating someone but shouldn't I be able at least to bring up the topic especially to third parties without flack. Can't shame itself be used or was meant to be used as a motivator?

Converting this useful and negative term is a tool of the PC. It isn't as you mention a form of " bullying ".

Since humans learned to communicate, shame has been neccessary as a societal guide for behavior. Then in the sixties acceptable behavior took a nose dive.

The term judgemental was also a vocabulary victim.

Example: having a child out of wedlock is shameful.

[Lodestar]

There is a distinct difference between shame which is harmful and guilt which is motivating.

Shame is internalized guilt and tells a lie. The lie is that you - all measure of you - is subpar, useless. That's called being "shame-based" and it leads to all kinds of dysfunctional behavior, especially addiction, in an effort to relieve constant low self-esteem.

Guilt doesn't say anything about our value as human beings. Guilt is attached to a behavior we have done which was the wrong choice. It says, "I'm still an okay person who made a mistake." It labels behavior not people. This is the important distinction.

When people are called names for their behavior and don't or can't make adjustments they often become shame-based and subject to all kinds of self-debasing behavior. It becomes a self-perpetuating cycle.

But when the focus is on their behavior and they can see and implement options to bring themselves into human expectations they can experience relief from their guilt. Sometimes shame-based people "hear" shaming when it isn't being done because the tendency is so ingrained. It's their automatic response to any criticism.

The goal is relief from the uncomfortable emotion that tells us we're not in line. Guilt is a positive because, like conscience, it is a compass for us of when we have violated our values system. Dispelling the feeling is as simple as changing the behavior.

Shame can be resolved as well but takes awareness of the lie that one is unworthy and a restoration of self-esteem. That can take therapy or years of self-help.

[homina12]

I think for most of our history shame served to keep us on good terms with the people around us we relied on for survival. The capacity to feel shame then helped us survive, and increased the likelihood that we'd reproduce and pass along that trait. The ability to note bad behavior and to call it out also evolved, so that group members at least potentially shamed each other to maintain conformity.

Shame, or any other emotion, is amoral though. People who want to avoid shame may be motivated to behave well, or they may be motivated to either acquire enough power to behave as they wish, or to hide their aberrant behavior. And then shame can be used as a weapon to harm a rival's reputation under the guise of maintaining conformity. And some (many) groups developed standards that served a few at the expense of many and used shame to enforce those standards.

So I see shame as neutral and amoral. An otherwise well adjusted person today doesn't rely on those around him or her for survival in most cases. Still, most of us feel some shame on occasion, and while sometimes it's earned, in other instances it's fed us by someone we care about or by advertising or even political leaders. I think we're wise to at least listen to and consider emotions that caution against some behavior, while being alert to others who might use our tendency to have some concern for their opinion as a way to manipulate us.

[charlygal]

Originally Posted by anononcty

I'm not talking about berating someone but shouldn't I be able at least to bring up the topic especially to third parties without flack. Can't shame itself be used or was meant to be used as a motivator?

What would cause someone to lose their power and right to their own thoughts and voice?

You can believe whatever you want. Your thoughts do not prevent other people from having their thoughts. You don't have a right to prevent someone else from giving you "flack."

[ukrkoz]

Shame is one of the most common manipulation tools. That's basically it.

[anononcty]

Originally Posted by charlygal

What would cause someone to lose their power and right to their own thoughts and voice?

You can believe whatever you want. Your thoughts do not prevent other people from having their thoughts. You don't have a right to prevent someone else from giving you "flack."

It's not just about preventing people from giving me flack. Actually my comments are considered to be giving others flack just by using or bring up 'shame' in conversation.

With stories about fat, body shaming etc so the word 'shaming' has become taboo. But that's why I asked the question. Shouldn't subjects that include 'shame' or might have the effect of shaming someone be allowed. It's not about bullying nor do I condone bullying. But when I pose a question about a person with some ignorant and nasty habits shouldn't I be able to say things like "Where's their sense of pride? or "I would be ashamed if I acted like they did" . And more important pride and shame theoretically would affect or be a factor for most.