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I see where intentional shamming can be an issue or a form of bullying. Or some had some really messed up experiences/things happen to them. But can't 'shame' be used as a usefull sign/tool for motivation to change or that one might be doing something wrong?
It seems just commenting or pointing out something negative about or to someone is now considered shamming when in fact it's nothing but a comment/opinion.
A person shouldn't feel shame for not having a job but they shouldn't they feel some shame for wanting many of the optional benefits a job brings like money to buy a car, booze or stuff in general? To me if an unemployed person is constantly borrowing or seeking favors shouldn't they feel shame or at least can't a person bring up the topic of shame or guilt. I've seen where some get offended for just saying or asking Why isn't that person ashamed or Where's their pride/guilt?
I'm not talking about berating someone but shouldn't I be able at least to bring up the topic especially to third parties without flack. Can't shame itself be used or was meant to be used as a motivator?
Dunno, I think making someone feel shame is only understandable if they are overstepping their boundaries.
And even then, I don't think of it as making them feel shame, rather grounding them.
If someone keeps asking for money because they dont work, I will help as much as I am comfortable helping, and if it is too much I will say no.
If the person reacts badly to me saying no, then it is time for a lesson of what it means to be grateful. And it will only be given because I care.
True there are people truely down and out in need of assistance or charity(oops can't use that it might 'shame' them). But if someone is willing to give you help there should be nothing to be ashamed about. That willingness or generosity should signify there are no issues now.
I mean not to get hung up on just the unemployed example. But wouldn't a person with pride want a job or more importantly want to pay their own way and/or be self sufficient? I would feel guilty as heck constantly borrowing or bumming favors, especially as an adult. Wouldn't or shouldn't they feel shame for constantly asking for favors. It's not the job status it's what they want beyond employment. The potential for being shamed has kept me financially independent. For me 'shame' worked as a motivator as it does millions of others.
Shaming doesn't seem like a very useful or appealing tactic to me, in a lot of the instances where it's used.
One I actually like though, is when people are caught behaving badly in public and video is captured of it and shared online. OK, sometimes people could use a little bit of social smackdown for being jerks, like the ones where people have been caught littering, or worse, abandoning pets. Shaming them online is the least that one can do.
I guess part of my thinking is that I don't always agree with everyone, as to what is deserving of shame and what isn't.
Take your example of the down and out, homeless, and so on... I live in Colorado. Some guy who came here all excited about legal weed, with no plan other than to somehow make money interacting with it (surprise, they expect you to know about agriculture, or retail, or security...) and now they're on the corner with a sign? Big eye roll and no sympathy from me. Our mentally ill homeless veterans on the other hand? Whole different story. But I honestly don't feel motivated enough to put any effort into "shaming" the homeless or panhandlers.
Body shape or size? No shame. Sexuality? No shame. Simply making what was probably an innocent human mistake of some sort? No shame.
Being an abusive jerk bag to other people? SHAME. Being cruel to children or animals? SHAME. Using your power and authority to get away with evil-doing and harm to others? SHAME. Screaming at retail workers on Thanksgiving? SHAME. The women videoed being racist at the lakeside BBQ or the community pool, to neighbors just there to chill and enjoy the day? SHAME.
So yeah. I mean, there's a market for viral video of humans behaving badly, so...I guess it can't hurt for SOME people to be aware of that?
I didn't know how to answer at the moment - I was going talk on shame...
Cuz I know a lot, ha, from 1973 on...lol.
But, the post was a lot about shaming...doing that to others. Not good.
I'll be back when I have more time to talk about both. Good topic.
Yes. Some conduct is shameful, and shame would be the correct response.
Shame mixed with high expectations was a constant in my upbringing, and I made sure to break that cycle with my own kids. Constant shaming is harmful to children.
But, sometimes someone does a thing for which shame is warranted. If you want to see a person who has no shame, look no further than the present occupant of the White House. He is the perfect example of a shameless person.
I see where intentional shamming can be an issue or a form of bullying. Or some had some really messed up experiences/things happen to them. But can't 'shame' be used as a usefull sign/tool for motivation to change or that one might be doing something wrong?
It seems just commenting or pointing out something negative about or to someone is now considered shamming when in fact it's nothing but a comment/opinion.
A person shouldn't feel shame for not having a job but they shouldn't they feel some shame for wanting many of the optional benefits a job brings like money to buy a car, booze or stuff in general? To me if an unemployed person is constantly borrowing or seeking favors shouldn't they feel shame or at least can't a person bring up the topic of shame or guilt. I've seen where some get offended for just saying or asking Why isn't that person ashamed or Where's their pride/guilt?
I'm not talking about berating someone but shouldn't I be able at least to bring up the topic especially to third parties without flack. Can't shame itself be used or was meant to be used as a motivator?
Just to understand, are you saying that you want to be able to be free do a bit of shaming without being shamed yourself? That while you are just commenting, opining, about what you see is negative, those who also comment and opine in a negative way about your negative opine are "giving flack"?
Intentional shaming is really just an inverted expression of powerlessness from the person doing the shaming. "I don't like how your behavior/appearance/ideas make me feel and so I'm going to try to make you feel bad and then I'll feel better." The shamer is trying to gain some sense of control and/or authority.
To that end, if shaming someone accomplishes what the shamer wanted...then yes, it's a useful tool for that person.
To a person experiencing the feelings of shame or guilt, it's a useful tool to the extent that it frees a person to find their own authenticity. When one is truly authentic, there is no shame, no guilt, and so people who try to shame just look like impotent people screaming into the wind. If the feelings of shame are not used to free a person emotionally, then no, it's not a useful tool for them.
Last edited by typical_guinea_pig; 11-26-2019 at 08:31 PM..
To a person experiencing the feelings of shame or guilt, it's a useful tool to the extent that it frees a person to find their own authenticity. When one is truly authentic, there is no shame, no guilt, and so people who try to shame just look like impotent people screaming into the wind. If the feelings of shame are not used to free a person emotionally, then no, it's not a useful tool for them.
^^^ This.
Until not long ago there was nothing wrong with shaming - people who violated the general social rules were shunned and shamed, and fear of that painful experience encouraged them to obey the rules. Shame prevented us from damaging our social relationships or motivated us to repair them.
Kids were shamed by the teachers - it was a great motivator to learn or behave better. It enforced expectations and cooperation.
It was meant good - to make everyone's life better, more honest and more constructive. It was a well-meant criticism, and people generally took such criticism well.
But nowadays, shame no longer unifies us by defining acceptable values. It instead divides us into separate groups who use shame to define the "others" and set ourselves apart from them. The shame once good became toxic. It's often going the way of trolling. It became a popular buzzword, a form of emotional abuse, and a growing genre of humor, especially on the internet. Done cowardly and anonymously.
Before, only traits or behaviors were shamed. Now people as a whole are shamed.
Shaming became harassing, bashing and bullying. People are attempting to bully anyone into feeling bad when they call out things they don't agree with.
People are weight-shamed, fat-shamed or body-shamed. Basically, body-shaming are all words that people use and actions they carry out to make someone feel bad about their body or style (and, sadly, such are almost always directed at women).
Guys who are tired of being called creeps are claiming creep-shaming. Breastfeeding advocates are formula-shaming moms. We have now social-media-shaming, opinion-shaming, tattoo-shaming, bad teeth-shaming, luxury-shaming, food-shaming, bigot-shaming, privilege-shaming, salary-shaming, single-shaming, spending-shaming, etc. Those broad uses of shaming are stretching to a point of meaninglessness.
Still, really ugly stuff.
Whatever happened to standards? I'm not old by ANY stretch of the imagination, but this new trend of calling everything "shaming" has reached epic levels of annoyance, at least with me.
We really should restrain ourselves from mindlessly slapping this label on every single thing in the world that makes us feel bad.
I tend to assume that all of our emotions evolved because they provided some benefit to us in at least some situations, but that doesn't mean that our emotions are useful every time they go off. So for instance we have a fight or flight response that is really helpful when it comes to running away from lions and bears and in that situation its very useful.
But this same mechanism gets activated when we are work and our boss is demanding that some project get done yesterday. In that situation we call this mechanism stress and this response likely just makes more prone to have heart attacks and dying early.
Modernly I am not sure how adaptive shame is. But its seems to be the tactic that the weak tend to employ against the strong to influence social control, so wherever there is virtue signaling there also seems to be fair amount of shaming
Funny this got brought up, at thanksgiving when many are faced with awkward family situations.
My SIL, has had some issues because she was “shamed,” mostly by her broom-factory-test-pilot of a mother and grandmother, though she vents her spleen on my Dad since Dad is rather stoic and curt in some situations. Anyhow, there was a family situation where an uncle was misbehaving. My Dad was ticked, and he told us not to put up with uncle’s misbehavior, and call him out, and that “he should be ashamed of himself.”
Wrong thing for Dad to say. “Do you know how damaging shame can be?” “You should never shame anyone!” My fathers comment was “bu||$hit, he should be ashamed to make that kind of comment to your brothers fiancé.”
Those two will never come to terms, even when Dad was basically standing up for her.
“But shame is damaging”.
“So? If he could be polite enough not to make a comment about Immy’s ethnicity he wouldn’t have to get damaged.”
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Good topic.
