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Old 09-19-2023, 08:22 AM
 
Location: SF/Mill Valley
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Quote:
Originally Posted by usayit View Post
For the same reason society looks down on boys playing with dolls and we push them towards more boy-related play; often related to professions; construction toys etc.
This speaks to gender roles more so than sexual orientation. I don’t think playing with cars and trucks as a boy has anything to do with my heterosexuality (or my gender identity, for that matter). Neither does it have to do with my acceptance of/disinterest in homosexuality in others; it’s simply a matter of tolerance i.e. the world doesn’t revolve around us.

In other words, personal disgust is what it is; it’s another matter entirely to speak-out against homosexuals, in the same way it is for those who are religious or a different race than us as well. All too often, folks believe it’s acceptable to do when they’re on the ‘right side of the fence’ but not when they find themselves outside of it.
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Old 09-19-2023, 11:50 AM
 
Location: Phoenix, AZ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by usayit View Post
The opposite is true as well. I have female friends who are repulsed by the idea of being with another woman.

But why is it such a strong response from men?

My personal take.

We as men are repulsed by it because that is how we are programmed from a very young age. Boys are raised to earn/value respect and pursue a purpose in life which generally means building a successful family. Society in general doesn't not respect homosexuality and society generally messages that building a healthy family is impossible among homosexual males. Girls are raised to value security and companionship both of which can be found among homosexual women; today even more so.

For the same reason society looks down on boys playing with dolls and we push them towards more boy-related play; often related to professions; construction toys etc. Society is less harsh on girls playing with toys usually associated with boys; trucks for example. In other words, society is more tolerant of some masculine aspects appearing in girls as long as they maintain some aspects of feminity. The opposite isn't true because it counters what society's views on a successful future male earning respect and purpose.
I still think that somewhere in the programming of that "strong response from men" are some other factors.

The defensive element that positions men as sexual aggressors. How many times in your life have you heard some very performatively masculine American guy (or actually in one case there was a British man ages ago I was friends with on here, we had a long private conversation about this)...say something that indicated he expected a gay man to come after him and what violence he would do to stop them if they tried?

This kind of talk was more common a few decades ago, but I'm sure it still crops up in some places.

But the thing is, if you take the concept out of the modern context, away from all of the contemporary expectations of consent that we have, and look at things historically and records of eras gone by in various cultures of the world... There was a thing of older men taking younger boys. It still happens but now it's absolutely a crime and is handled as such, but there have been at points in history where it was just...a thing that some indulged in. Maybe snickered about behind people's hands, but not an evil to be stopped.

This has nothing to do with the modern gay man.

But I feel that somewhere in the ancestral lizard brains of men I can see where there are bad associations in GENERAL with the whole concept...feeling like there's some kind of inherent attack about it.

I guess what I'm saying is that gut-deep disgust and revulsion of that automatic a sort...it's your primitive mind's way of telling you that you shouldn't feel safe about this. That you may need to defend yourself or get away from what is causing the feeling. While there might not be a lot of logic to that as a reaction to your everyday gay male couple in the world, there could be some deeper programming there for it.

Mind, I am not arguing with you. I don't think it's any one specific thing, but a combination of things. I just suspect this might be some element of it.
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Old 09-19-2023, 12:11 PM
 
Location: Ruston, Louisiana
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Originally Posted by The_Atlguy View Post
I've recently learned that sexuality with women is more "fluid" which is why women may experiment sexually with other women. But experimenting doesn't mean they are lesbian or even bisexual. Men typically aren't into experimenting. If you're a man, you're either straight or gay. My guess is there are many more women who are bisexual than men, but I'm not certain on that.
I personally don't believe in "bi-sexual". You are either straight or gay. You may be gay and not out of the closet and married to a woman, having sex with her but he may 'prefer' a man. Gay. Bisexual is just a nicer way to say "gay". I don't believe a person claiming to be bi-sexual actually lusts after both sexes. They prefer one, but can go through the motions with either.

Straight or Gay. Black and White.
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Old 09-19-2023, 01:14 PM
 
Location: Phoenix, AZ
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Originally Posted by Bootsamillion View Post
I personally don't believe in "bi-sexual". You are either straight or gay. You may be gay and not out of the closet and married to a woman, having sex with her but he may 'prefer' a man. Gay. Bisexual is just a nicer way to say "gay". I don't believe a person claiming to be bi-sexual actually lusts after both sexes. They prefer one, but can go through the motions with either.

Straight or Gay. Black and White.
You could not be more wrong.

And for some of us, "bisexual" isn't even adequate, because I am able to be attracted to nonbinary people as well, and it comes down to not seeing a human person as a walking life support for their genitals. I am mainly attracted to people whose personalities spark excitement and interest with me. My range of preferences for looks is huge, and someone's got to be an extreme outlier to not be good enough looking for me to date, because it isn't going to be the main thing I'm judging them on.

Which is why "pansexual" felt a whole lot more appropriate. I'm not attracted to everyone, but I could be attracted to anyone. Depends far more what's in their skull than what's in their pants.

I HAVE had far more men in my life as sexual partners than women, but that isn't about attraction. I encounter other women and realize that I'm attracted to them all the time. It's just that the process of moving our interaction from flirting to "closing the deal" feels easier with men. They do a lot of the work, honestly. I sometimes feel confused when trying to "flirt with intent" with a woman, there's that vibe that each of us is waiting for the other to make a move and no one is quite sure who should say or do what exactly. I've been with a few women, and very much enjoyed that. The times that happened always started as "threesome" scenarios with a guy, and what always winds up happening is that we (the two women) enjoy each other so much that we bond closely and end up pushing the guy out. But it's a small percentage of partners I have had, among a much larger number of men.

But I would not say that I prefer men. It's just easier.

I mean, I eat frozen pizza way more often than I eat steak, it ain't because the frozen pizza is what I prefer, it's because I'm lazy and it's easy.

And I know plenty of men who are legitimately bi, or pansexual, or heteroflexible, or whatever word they want to use to describe something other than completely gay or straight.

And hell, I've known fetishists who were so ~into~ whatever ~thing~ that they were into, that the human in the situation was almost immaterial. One man I know who identifies as bi, he's just really into backsides. His, women's, men's, whatever, there's the one part he's just super duper into and everybody's got one, though he did need them to have generally fit bodies and be close to his own age range. Dude was a pirate, obsessed with booty! lol
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Old 09-22-2023, 08:21 AM
 
Location: SF/Mill Valley
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bootsamillion View Post
I personally don't believe in "bi-sexual". You are either straight or gay. You may be gay and not out of the closet and married to a woman, having sex with her but he may 'prefer' a man. Gay. Bisexual is just a nicer way to say "gay".
I don’t know if I’d call it a ‘belief’, but I tend to agree since physical sexual attraction, in and of itself, is biologically-based i.e. testosterone and estrogen drive lust; dopamine, serotonin and norepinephrine create attraction. While it certainly extends far beyond the physical as to the type of women (or men) one is attracted to, you’re either into folks of the same gender, as a whole, or you’re not; one can’t be ‘kind of gay’ or ‘kind of straight’, at least if they’re being real with themselves and others.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic_Spork View Post
And for some of us, "bisexual" isn't even adequate, because I am able to be attracted to nonbinary people as well, and it comes down to not seeing a human person as a walking life support for their genitals.
This is an odd statement, particularly relative to a psychology forum. No socially/sexually healthy person, no matter their sexual orientation, is going to see ‘a human person as a walking life support for their genitals’. If they do, it certainly doesn’t have anything to do with their sexual orientation; you almost appear to be implying otherwise.
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Old 09-25-2023, 01:37 PM
 
Location: Ruston, Louisiana
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic_Spork View Post
You could not be more wrong.

And for some of us, "bisexual" isn't even adequate, because I am able to be attracted to nonbinary people as well, and it comes down to not seeing a human person as a walking life support for their genitals. I am mainly attracted to people whose personalities spark excitement and interest with me. My range of preferences for looks is huge, and someone's got to be an extreme outlier to not be good enough looking for me to date, because it isn't going to be the main thing I'm judging them on.

Which is why "pansexual" felt a whole lot more appropriate. I'm not attracted to everyone, but I could be attracted to anyone. Depends far more what's in their skull than what's in their pants.

I HAVE had far more men in my life as sexual partners than women, but that isn't about attraction. I encounter other women and realize that I'm attracted to them all the time. It's just that the process of moving our interaction from flirting to "closing the deal" feels easier with men. They do a lot of the work, honestly. I sometimes feel confused when trying to "flirt with intent" with a woman, there's that vibe that each of us is waiting for the other to make a move and no one is quite sure who should say or do what exactly. I've been with a few women, and very much enjoyed that. The times that happened always started as "threesome" scenarios with a guy, and what always winds up happening is that we (the two women) enjoy each other so much that we bond closely and end up pushing the guy out. But it's a small percentage of partners I have had, among a much larger number of men.

But I would not say that I prefer men. It's just easier.

I mean, I eat frozen pizza way more often than I eat steak, it ain't because the frozen pizza is what I prefer, it's because I'm lazy and it's easy.

And I know plenty of men who are legitimately bi, or pansexual, or heteroflexible, or whatever word they want to use to describe something other than completely gay or straight.

And hell, I've known fetishists who were so ~into~ whatever ~thing~ that they were into, that the human in the situation was almost immaterial. One man I know who identifies as bi, he's just really into backsides. His, women's, men's, whatever, there's the one part he's just super duper into and everybody's got one, though he did need them to have generally fit bodies and be close to his own age range. Dude was a pirate, obsessed with booty! lol
Dude. If you are flirting with another man and hoping to close a deal, you are GAY. Accept it.
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Old 09-26-2023, 09:43 AM
 
Location: Phoenix, AZ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bootsamillion View Post
Dude. If you are flirting with another man and hoping to close a deal, you are GAY. Accept it.
I'm not a dude. I'm a woman. LOL

I'm saying I have been with mostly men, but also a few women. I don't have a gender preference, either in noticing a feeling of attraction, nor in the end when stuff is actually happening. It all comes down to the individual. I have not had sex with a nonbinary or trans person, but I would not rule out the possibility if I were single and looking. I have been attracted to such individuals before, it just didn't work out for anything to really happen there.

The difference there is that assuming I'm single and exploring possibilities with people around me in the world...I can pick up on the intentions of men, give 'em the green light with some flirty conversation, and they will usually push the whole interaction in the direction of the bedroom. Not always, but...a lot of men, when they are interested, do a lot of the "work" of getting things going.

But when I'm attracted to women, which happens almost as often, first of all I don't necessarily know if they are actually interested. Women are a lot more chatty and flirty without always meaning anything definitive by it. I've had friends make some pretty explicit comments, and when I tried to gently question if there was real intent behind them, back off and go "oh no, no, I am not into women that way, I was just playing around, joking." I don't have a problem with that! I don't take it as rejection. It's just that women seem a little more subtle and complicated. Honestly it makes me a bit more sympathetic to straight men in dating...it really is easier to work out what a man might be down for, or to guess pretty accurately.

It's just the relative ease of pursuing those connections in the wild, that has rendered my actual sexual history about 90% heterosexual. But even while married to a man, I have the same level of attraction to women or men that appeal to me. Which is to say that I am happy to be flirty, enthusiastic about their company, but the thought of sex with any of the above is gonna give me a gut-deep "no" feeling because I am not available. There I am being one of those complicated women, eh?

I really don't think that the way I experience attraction is typical. Not to say I think it's a problem or wrong. Just saying that I do not believe that all humans experience these things the same way, which appears to be the point that you and Cowboy are trying to argue, for some reason. But random people on the internet do not know the workings of a stranger's brain better than they themselves do.

And if one person is telling you that they don't have a gender preference and never have...and that the function of how my feelings of attraction even work has nothing to do with gender at all, I might not be the norm but I'm sure I'm not unique.

My attraction to women and having enjoyed being with a few sexually sure as hell does not invalidate my love, desire, attraction or enjoyment of my husband. And I don't imagine that a man having been with another man at some point would make it a lie on his part if he later found himself very happy with a woman. I don't believe that to be impossible, more importantly I think it's a stunning display of ego to act like you've got some authority to tell a complete stranger how they think and feel, like you know better than they do somehow.

Of course those out there happily living outside of your rigid little rules and boxes and labels, likely cannot be bothered to care about the opinions of someone who uses "gay" as though intended as a slur, like you're doing here. The few bisexual men I've known who come to mind, would just laugh at you if I were to inform them that hey sorry, a couple of posters in a forum have informed me that they are gay, so I'm gonna need them to go ahead and break up with their girlfriends and wives now...hey I don't make the rules, you're gonna have to talk to *checks notes* "Bootsamillion" and "Corporate Cowboy." Apparently the designated regulators of human sexuality or something, I dunno. I didn't vote for them either.

Ridiculous.
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Old 09-26-2023, 01:51 PM
 
Location: SF/Mill Valley
8,659 posts, read 3,856,293 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by usayit View Post
We as men are repulsed by it because that is how we are programmed from a very young age. Boys are raised to earn/value respect and pursue a purpose in life which generally means building a successful family.
I don’t agree ‘purpose’ or ‘building a family’ has anything to do with our sexuality, as a whole; family-planning is a separate issue entirely, particularly in this day-and-age. Women often want a family too; actually, generally-speaking, more so (and gay folks can as well). From my perspective, then, this is an odd notion (especially if you’re a man) as the reason most of us have sex is because it’s a healthy, enjoyable thing to do within the context of a relationship of some sort. I’m sure most women feel the same way, whether they’re straight or gay.

Women are more open to experimenting (even if they know they are heterosexual); sometimes, it’s within the context of a threesome (to involve their straight partner) whereas I think the reverse scenario is far less likely to occur amongst couples, if ever - unless the dude is pretending to be straight.
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Old 09-26-2023, 01:59 PM
 
Location: Ruston, Louisiana
2,071 posts, read 1,039,331 times
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Originally Posted by Sonic_Spork View Post
I'm not a dude. I'm a woman. LOL

I'm saying I have been with mostly men, but also a few women. I don't have a gender preference, either in noticing a feeling of attraction, nor in the end when stuff is actually happening. It all comes down to the individual. I have not had sex with a nonbinary or trans person, but I would not rule out the possibility if I were single and looking. I have been attracted to such individuals before, it just didn't work out for anything to really happen there.

The difference there is that assuming I'm single and exploring possibilities with people around me in the world...I can pick up on the intentions of men, give 'em the green light with some flirty conversation, and they will usually push the whole interaction in the direction of the bedroom. Not always, but...a lot of men, when they are interested, do a lot of the "work" of getting things going.

But when I'm attracted to women, which happens almost as often, first of all I don't necessarily know if they are actually interested. Women are a lot more chatty and flirty without always meaning anything definitive by it. I've had friends make some pretty explicit comments, and when I tried to gently question if there was real intent behind them, back off and go "oh no, no, I am not into women that way, I was just playing around, joking." I don't have a problem with that! I don't take it as rejection. It's just that women seem a little more subtle and complicated. Honestly it makes me a bit more sympathetic to straight men in dating...it really is easier to work out what a man might be down for, or to guess pretty accurately.

It's just the relative ease of pursuing those connections in the wild, that has rendered my actual sexual history about 90% heterosexual. But even while married to a man, I have the same level of attraction to women or men that appeal to me. Which is to say that I am happy to be flirty, enthusiastic about their company, but the thought of sex with any of the above is gonna give me a gut-deep "no" feeling because I am not available. There I am being one of those complicated women, eh?

I really don't think that the way I experience attraction is typical. Not to say I think it's a problem or wrong. Just saying that I do not believe that all humans experience these things the same way, which appears to be the point that you and Cowboy are trying to argue, for some reason. But random people on the internet do not know the workings of a stranger's brain better than they themselves do.

And if one person is telling you that they don't have a gender preference and never have...and that the function of how my feelings of attraction even work has nothing to do with gender at all, I might not be the norm but I'm sure I'm not unique.

My attraction to women and having enjoyed being with a few sexually sure as hell does not invalidate my love, desire, attraction or enjoyment of my husband. And I don't imagine that a man having been with another man at some point would make it a lie on his part if he later found himself very happy with a woman. I don't believe that to be impossible, more importantly I think it's a stunning display of ego to act like you've got some authority to tell a complete stranger how they think and feel, like you know better than they do somehow.

Of course those out there happily living outside of your rigid little rules and boxes and labels, likely cannot be bothered to care about the opinions of someone who uses "gay" as though intended as a slur, like you're doing here. The few bisexual men I've known who come to mind, would just laugh at you if I were to inform them that hey sorry, a couple of posters in a forum have informed me that they are gay, so I'm gonna need them to go ahead and break up with their girlfriends and wives now...hey I don't make the rules, you're gonna have to talk to *checks notes* "Bootsamillion" and "Corporate Cowboy." Apparently the designated regulators of human sexuality or something, I dunno. I didn't vote for them either.

Ridiculous.
Sorry. LOL. Thought you were a guy, and if ANY guy "flirts" with another guy, he is GAY. Flaming Nellie, whatever you want to call it.

I do think that women are "gay" if they are only attracted to other women and not any man. A woman that is attracted to both is usually called... a woman. It's not as wierd as a guy with a guy!! Bi-sexual as a woman is no big deal. However, if a man wants another man like that? That's just gay.
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Old 09-26-2023, 02:30 PM
 
Location: Phoenix, AZ
20,364 posts, read 14,640,743 times
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Originally Posted by Bootsamillion View Post
Sorry. LOL. Thought you were a guy, and if ANY guy "flirts" with another guy, he is GAY. Flaming Nellie, whatever you want to call it.

I do think that women are "gay" if they are only attracted to other women and not any man. A woman that is attracted to both is usually called... a woman. It's not as wierd as a guy with a guy!! Bi-sexual as a woman is no big deal. However, if a man wants another man like that? That's just gay.
OK let's unpack that a little bit. What exactly do you mean?

That it's deplorably unmanly, or worthy of insult?

Or that such a man cannot be happy with a woman or does not have true attraction to women?

Both?

I'm having a hard time untangling your insulting tone from the literal meaning of your words.

Nonetheless, I know men who are mostly into women but who have had positive sexual experiences with men from time to time. I've seen orgies you would not believe. I know beautiful people who just like to have naked fun times with other beautiful people. (Three of the men I am thinking of are passionately married to gorgeous women. One of them is a former Olympic trainer and MMA fighter, but he'd probably laugh if somebody called him a "flaming Nellie") I know men who like to date couples and sleep with both spouses. Hell. I know a poly family that started as a het couple, then the wife got another "brother-husband" partner, then transitioned and became a man, and one of the men became a non-binary "they." Whatever ya wanna call any of that business...occasionally I encounter folks who are a bit wild even for my worldview. (I am Gen X and these are Millennials and Z's...I can admit that occasionally, while I've got no hate in me, my head spins a little at the things I see younger people doing. Kids always gonna find ways to be shocking! lol!) But my point is that there are people out there doing all sorts of things. Call 'em whatever you want, they aren't asking your permission or approval, that's for sure. Not yours, mine, or anybody else's.
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