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What I have been talking about doing in this thread would be a nonviolent and compassionate method to attempt to make a social change that would be to the benefit of everyone, victims and perps.
I have not talked about force or violence or being vengeful, etc.
What I would like to see would be PSAs which are more perp focused, addressing things like, how to better recognize nonconsent, encouraging boys and men to be more gentlemanly, to not take advantage of situations, to be more respectful.
I am giving them the benefit of the doubt that perhaps they dont know these things, and they are making honest mistakes.
Are you opposed to PSAs of this nature?
To some extent, this needs to come from parental guidance during the upbringing process. If parents, fathers especially, aren't involved with their sons on this level, there won't be much "society", or PSA's can do. Or maybe there is, IDK, but IMO this goes back to an issue I raise from time to time on C-D in different contexts: we need to be raising boys differently. Leaving them to their own devices, as so many parents do, does. not. work., except with those who tend toward shyness.
Last edited by Ruth4Truth; 06-10-2020 at 03:22 PM..
I think PSAs/trainings/etc. that embolden other men to intervene and report would probably be more productive. A lot of crime could be prevented, and a lot of crimes could be solved, if people who either observed the perpetrator acting or heard him talking about it afterwards stepped up. "Sorry, your buddy really is a rapist - what he did was rape, not shenanigans" is kind of a tough sell, but people need to hear it.
To some extent, this needs to come from parental guidance during the upbringing process. If parents, fathers especially, aren't involved with their sons on this level, there won't be much "society", or PSA's can do. Or maybe there is, IDK, but IMO this goes back to an issue I raise from time to time on C-D in different contexts: we need to be raising boys differently. Leaving them to their own devices, as so many parents do, does. not. work., except with those who tend toward shyness.
Very true. The PSA would be society taking on parenting that didn't happen. Sadly, with an increase in divorce and broken homes and absent fathers, this is becoming more the norm.
As part of my required hours toward my counseling degree, I volunteered to teach classes like this. Anger management, sex education, etc. So I know from firsthand experience there is definitely an audience of fatherless "lost" boys, and a need for education on how to human.
Maybe making it public as I originally suggested is a bad idea, because people who would be adversely affected by that message, would be adversely affected. In the program I worked in, it was directed at those who were already perps. Ie, they had already been arrested for such offenses, and it was part of a diversion program.
So, perhaps mitigation at the level of "oppositional defiant disorder," for young men who are not yet full blown antisocials, but are on their way there.
I found that work rewarding. The young men I worked with did seem open to learning. They liked me, I liked them. There was a therapeutic kind of bond that happened. They were indeed lost young men that wanted someone to understand them, and connect with them, and teach a better way to do things.
Most of them lacked fathers or a strong father figure, I think.
Anyway it shows a good face of our system that we provide remedial services like this. The earlier, the better.
These are good points. I wouldn't want to make it worse for the guys who are already suffering from approach anxiety, or guys who can't read clues well. We have had a few posters on here who said they missed clues and they were really afraid of coming off as a stalker just by saying 'hi' to a girl.
Funny thing is that is how I feel too, and I am not even a guy. I am worried that guy I like thinks I am stalking him so I go above and beyond trying to show I'm not, to the point of ignoring him in public instead of saying 'hi.' I probably seem rude.
Maybe he thinks he is scaring me and that I am avoiding him, so he might be doing the same thing as I am, going above and beyond trying to respect my boundaries if he thinks I am scared of him.
For him, it would make more sense, since guys are accused of stalking/assault more than women are, I think, and women are more likely to be physically afraid of men than vice versa. This guy isn't a huge guy, but he is in military shape and I am positive he could outrun me and fight me off if I tried to assault him (of course I wouldn't). Yet it would be harder for me to fight him off. So, I doubt he is scared of me. I am just projecting how I would feel as a woman if I thought someone was stalking me around town.
Given your life experience, I understand why you might have some anxiety. I get that.
That said I would be less worried about 'appearing' to stalk him. You live in a small town, it is to be expected that you are going to run into each other.
I don't know if you ever saw the Peter Seller's version of Lolita. But it was a movie made in 1962 with all of the restrictions on nudity and language that movies had in that era and the challenge for Peter Sellers as an actor, was to convey quickly to the audience, that the character he portrays is a deviant. How he did that was to repeatedly talk about how much of a 'regular' guy he was. The more defensive about how he was a regular guy, the weirder he seemed. Here is the clip I am talking about.
What I am getting is the more you try to hide whatever your quirks that is what makes you come across as weird, whereas the more you accept your quirks, the more people will overlook them.
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Originally Posted by moongirl00
But we just live in a small town so we run into each other now and then by coincidence.
It probably is true that sociopaths and psychopaths commit most assaults, and, they would not be affected by the PSAs. So, you have brought up an excellent point.
I would be in favor of this, if it became socially acceptable. The problem is, since its not really socially acceptable, it just comes off as really desperate and thirsty if I ask a man out. In my experience, anyway, and they usually see it that way too and it turns them off. Or, if the guy is opportunistic he might jump on the opportunity, but it doesn't mean he reciprocates my feelings. He is just going along with it because I made it easy for him.
We also might end up having 95% of women asking out the same 5% of men (the most handsome and wealthy ones), while Joe Blow working at the gas station never gets asked out. Whereas men don't tend to be picky in this same way; as long as a girl has something he finds attractive about her, he will ask her out (as long as he doesn't suffer from extreme approach anxiety).
The advantage that I saw with women asking men out is the math, if the social norms changed, I figure the odds of her asking out a guy who has Anti Social Personality disorder is just 4-6%, which I think is a lot better odds than the current approach.
But I also agree that social norm likely isn't going to change. If enough men are asking you out without you having to ask them out, why bother doing so?
If you look at how Tinder works 80% of the women are matching with 20% of the guys and the other 80% of the men are fighting over the remaining 20% of women. So we are closer to that than you realize.
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Originally Posted by moongirl00
I don't know if this is a new thing in human history. I think promiscuity has existed through the ages. I am sure assault has as well. We just haven't really figured out a way to solve it.
If the PSAs aren't a good idea, then I would suggest sensitivity training for law enforcement officers and detectives and attorneys when dealing with victims. Though a defense attorney might have carte blanche to do everything in his power to defend his client, and often that involves trying to smear the character of the accuser. That must be awful and something I would never want to go through. When I had to meet in front of the judge about my stalking case, he was very sensitive and respectful to me, though he did ask me some "hard" questions, because he had to make sure I wasn't lying or just being vengeful about something, I guess.
Does that happen in other court cases with other types of crime? I don't know enough about the criminal justice system to know. I am a psychology person, not a forensic or law person.
For certain types of cases I think that law enforcement gets sensitivity training, at least where I live, so for instance if you needed to get a restraining order against someone, the judges and staff handling those matters had training and expected to be dealing with people escaping domestic violence.
Given your life experience, I understand why you might have some anxiety. I get that.
That said I would be less worried about 'appearing' to stalk him. You live in a small town, it is to be expected that you are going to run into each other.
I don't know if you ever saw the Peter Seller's version of Lolita. But it was a movie made in 1962 with all of the restrictions on nudity and language that movies had in that era and the challenge for Peter Sellers as an actor, was to convey quickly to the audience, that the character he portrays is a deviant. How he did that was to repeatedly talk about how much of a 'regular' guy he was. The more defensive about how he was a regular guy, the weirder he seemed. Here is the clip I am talking about.
What I am getting is the more you try to hide whatever your quirks that is what makes you come across as weird, whereas the more you accept your quirks, the more people will overlook them.
Absolutely! When the guy who ended up stalking me first made his appearance to me, one of the first things he said was "I hope I don't seem creepy. I am not a stalker!" etc. Of course the first thing it made me think was that he was creepy and a stalker. Turned out he had already been surreptitiously studying and researching me for a long time without my knowing, so, he knew he had something to "hide" and it snuck through in subtle (or not so subtle) ways. I tried to give him the benefit of the doubt (I am not one of those people that immediately says "Eww stalker!" at every guy who looks at me), but over time his stalkerish ways became more and more obvious.
Humans are pretty perceptive, I think, about other people's motives or intentions. Having a guilty conscience or some slight shame or embarrassment about doing something wrong, leaks through in subtle ways that others can detect. Like the clip you posted from Lolita. Great actor; he portrayed it very well!
I wonder if someone is a psychopath or antisocial, their lack of guilt gives them an advantage in disguising themselves and their intentions, because they don't feel guilty or feel like they are doing something wrong, they don't have that guilty conscience leaking through in subtle ways, giving them away.
Though there are some that say look for "uncanny valley" in someone to detect if they are a psychopath. That is, they appear normal in every way, but there is just something slightly robotic or unnatural about them. Since psychopaths don't have the same emotional register as others but have just gotten really good at mimicking emotions, they might show uncanny valley.
A bit of a derail, but I thought it was interesting.
Thank you for bringing up this point.
So if I run into this guy again, I won't start saying "I swear I'm not stalking you!" ...as he backs slowly away....
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The advantage that I saw with women asking men out is the math, if the social norms changed, I figure the odds of her asking out a guy who has Anti Social Personality disorder is just 4-6%, which I think is a lot better odds than the current approach.
But I also agree that social norm likely isn't going to change. If enough men are asking you out without you having to ask them out, why bother doing so?
If you look at how Tinder works 80% of the women are matching with 20% of the guys and the other 80% of the men are fighting over the remaining 20% of women. So we are closer to that than you realize.
Not surprised! Guys who get a lot of attention on OLD I would bet are high on the narcissism spectrum. One reason I avoid OLD. I haven't done it much. I met nice people off of there in the early 2000s when it had just started, but I think it may have changed a lot since then.
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For certain types of cases I think that law enforcement gets sensitivity training, at least where I live, so for instance if you needed to get a restraining order against someone, the judges and staff handling those matters had training and expected to be dealing with people escaping domestic violence.
I think you are probably right. Things may be improving in that area within the past 20 or 30 years. The cops and judge I interacted with seemed pretty sensitive.
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