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Kind of but not ultimately. Really another person's choices aren't exactly my business. But if anyone asked me for advice, I'd tell them not to necessarily just leap into doing impulsive things because they feel good, no. But if you do have a strong desire to do something, don't let other people's opinions and judgments stop you unless there is a material "risk management" reason to...and even then, if you look, you can find ways to do what you want where the risk is so mitigated as to be a non-issue. Think about it...and make informed decisions. Spending all of my money on cake today will cause me grief tomorrow, and we've all got to find a balance.
So for me...there are things I want to do, that I'm going to find a protective environment to do, with people who have certain cultural standards of behavior that are enforced, and it's safe for me there.
The EMPOWERMENT that matters to me, is people (women) having the freedom to weigh up their own situations, feel however they do about themselves and their actions, avoid or take risks in a way that they choose, and if other people (men, society, whatever) have an opinion about it, then it just does not matter, because the power to control my (or anyone's) self worth is not in their hands. There are some people whose opinions matter more to me, but I CHOSE those people. And any time where I find I've made a bad choice then it's on me to walk away from that, and learn from it, and pursue connections that are better for me. As a kid I might have been playing with feeling power over others...but that is just childish behavior, like trying to get away with things, the mature take on this is having power over MYSELF. Denying others power over me. Agency and autonomy.
The reason I get so riled about this subject, is the notion that randoms on the internet have some kind of a right to sit in judgment and declare some arbitrary "line"...to say, women in bathing suits at the beach is fine, but if you wear yoga pants in the store, then a man has a right to...what? If you do this it's ok, if you do that, it's not and you should be ashamed because you're "debasing" yourself. OK, to cut the crap, I've got a pretty big group of friends who have seen me without any clothes on, at adult private parties where that's pretty normal behavior, and I don't feel debased, disrespected, objectified, or in any way less than a whole person with regards to any of them. Not. One. So some new guy might show up, standing against the wall with a deer in the headlights look, and later come and awkwardly try to talk to me because he saw something he liked. I'm gonna be nice but I'm not likely to give him much attention and whatever opinion he's got won't really matter. Having seen something entitles him to...nothing. As he will quickly learn. And then he can adapt, or leave, as they always do. My dignity is not even dinged by his "gaze."
Sure. I'm an outlier. I mean, one of thousands of outliers, but fine. As usual, I speak to what is possible, not what is common.
Being modest, and elevating a spiritual and/or intellectual life, is one choice a person can make. But it's funny...people might know Cardi B for shaking her body and singing about sex, but she's a lot more financially successful than I'll ever be, I have no idea how spiritual she is or isn't, or what that might look like for her, and I bet she's smarter than anyone gives her credit for. The idea that a woman who flaunts her sexuality is NOT spiritual or intellectual, is nothing but an assumption, and as likely to be false as any when coming from a judging stranger.
As usual, you said it all way more eloquently than me. But yeah..."What she said."
Much ado about nothing. People will do what they want and others will judge or not judge as they choose. You can't stop them and they can't stop you. We don't all have to see eye to eye we just have to respect where one person's freedoms end and another person's begin.
Much ado about nothing. People will do what they want and others will judge or not judge as they choose. You can't stop them and they can't stop you. We don't all have to see eye to eye we just have to respect where one person's freedoms end and another person's begin.
Well, therein lies the problem, as I see it.
Ultimately, I don't care if someone merely disagrees with me. I want to be safe, in our disagreement.
I was reading up on the 'custom' of throwing acid in a woman's face, in some cultures. It's very prevalent in India...and I think maybe in other cultures too.
Women there are trying to get battery acid taken off the market...where someone can just duck into a store, and buy the acid any old time they want. The acitivists are trying to get that stopped. There's no good reason to be able to just buy it off the shelf. But the Indian gov. is reluctant to pass such a law...a law that would make it harder for someone to just walk up to a woman and throw acid in her face.
You know, back in the day, it used to be the custom in India that when a husband died, the wife was to die as well. Burned alive in a pyre, along with her dead husband. It wasn't until 1987 that that practice was criminalized.
In 2016, a Muslim woman was at the beach in France, dressed in a burkini (so VERY covered up), and the French police forced her to take articles of clothing OFF. Four armed French policeman forced her to disrobe because of a burkini ban, enforced because of terrorist attacks in France at the time. I imagine she was mortified.
My physique neither improved this delusion of empowerment .
Any objectifying is from the onlooker .
I receive the blowback of that glare, stare or intrusion. Beyond that a persons paycheck will not ensure the message or behavior to the receptor is welcoming.
Cardib can have all the material wealth and fame. Her talents are marketable.
I neither admire her brand or emulate that as a role model. My empowerment is neither bought or sold. Its cultivated.
My physique neither improved this delusion of empowerment .
Any objectifying is from the onlooker .
I receive the blowback of that glare, stare or intrusion. Beyond that a persons paycheck will not ensure the message or behavior to the receptor is welcoming.
Cardib can have all the material wealth and fame. Her talents are marketable.
I neither admire her brand or emulate that as a role model. My empowerment is neither bought or sold. Its cultivated.
I don't admire her brand either. But I want her to have the right to market herself that way, if she chooses.
When women are being judged by others, has your personal experience been that has occurred more often by males or females?
The reason I ask is that generally around me it has been women much more than men, who have spent the most time policing other women's sexuality and sexual decision making. So I have gotten a lot more critical comments like "Can you believe how she is dressed?" "What was she thinking?" from women than I have ever gotten them from men. Also when I went to a wedding of a female lawyer who married a guy in the military and the women at the table were also female lawyers who had gone to law school with the bride. The topic of the conversation was how the bride was marrying down because if she had joined the military she would outrank him and I was thinking men would never talk about other men like these women had talked about the bride ( I mean these women were at least nominally supposed to be her friends). But I also realize that my personal experience may not generalize to others and it really might not be representative of what women's experiences have been.
When women are being judged by others, has your personal experience been that has occurred more often by males or females?
The reason I ask is that generally around me it has been women much more than men, who have spent the most time policing other women's sexuality and sexual decision making. So I have gotten a lot more critical comments like "Can you believe how she is dressed?" "What was she thinking?" from women than I have ever gotten them from men. Also when I went to a wedding of a female lawyer who married a guy in the military and the women at the table were also female lawyers who had gone to law school with the bride. The topic of the conversation was how the bride was marrying down because if she had joined the military she would outrank him and I was thinking men would never talk about other men like these women had talked about the bride ( I mean these women were at least nominally supposed to be her friends). But I also realize that my personal experience may not generalize to others and it really might not be representative of what women's experiences have been.
So I am curious about your experiences here.
I think there is a lot of pride and arrogance that comes along with this concept of empowerment and even worse, entitlement.
Men are less insufferable than women when it comes to this. I think if the bride in your example is empowered and comfortable in her skin she should be fine with "outranking" her husband. Her friends are petty and shallow. I've seen women do this a lot, and have had it done to me, I avoid those types of people.
When it comes to dress sometimes someone is just dressed inappropriately for an occasion and it is hard for people not to notice or respond, male or female.
When women are being judged by others, has your personal experience been that has occurred more often by males or females?
The reason I ask is that generally around me it has been women much more than men, who have spent the most time policing other women's sexuality and sexual decision making. So I have gotten a lot more critical comments like "Can you believe how she is dressed?" "What was she thinking?" from women than I have ever gotten them from men. Also when I went to a wedding of a female lawyer who married a guy in the military and the women at the table were also female lawyers who had gone to law school with the bride. The topic of the conversation was how the bride was marrying down because if she had joined the military she would outrank him and I was thinking men would never talk about other men like these women had talked about the bride ( I mean these women were at least nominally supposed to be her friends). But I also realize that my personal experience may not generalize to others and it really might not be representative of what women's experiences have been.
So I am curious about your experiences here.
Yes, sometimes women are mean and catty. But how is it much different than the guys who say stuff like "He must be loaded with money, otherwise someone as hot as she is would never marry a wrinkled old fart." Or, "I'm a 40 yr. old male, still a virgin, and the only women I seem to attract are dumpy women who already have children." Or "A woman that hot is probably a bee." Without having ever spoken one word to her before. OR "Women only want the hot guys. They don't want the providers, they want the Chads".
None of these things are very uplifting. There are a lot of insecure and jealous people who will say things to try and bolster their threatened egos. It's not just a guy or girl thing.
When women are being judged by others, has your personal experience been that has occurred more often by males or females?
The reason I ask is that generally around me it has been women much more than men, who have spent the most time policing other women's sexuality and sexual decision making. So I have gotten a lot more critical comments like "Can you believe how she is dressed?" "What was she thinking?" from women than I have ever gotten them from men. Also when I went to a wedding of a female lawyer who married a guy in the military and the women at the table were also female lawyers who had gone to law school with the bride. The topic of the conversation was how the bride was marrying down because if she had joined the military she would outrank him and I was thinking men would never talk about other men like these women had talked about the bride ( I mean these women were at least nominally supposed to be her friends). But I also realize that my personal experience may not generalize to others and it really might not be representative of what women's experiences have been.
So I am curious about your experiences here.
I think that there are bad actors of any kind out there... I would GUESS that the passive-aggressive female form of judging is more widespread, but usually milder, especially in Western cultures. The form it takes from men is less common perhaps, but can be more threatening to most women when it happens.
Women will give some side eye, or quietly throw a little shade. But I don't think I've heard many women suggest that just because another woman reveals her body in some way that entices men, she DESERVES to be assaulted. I have heard men say this. That if she's allowed to arouse him, he should be allowed to satisfy himself, and if she didn't want whatever behavior he wants to do, she should not have showed off the goods to his eyes.
As Sassy has been saying...other people's OPINIONS are one thing. One can choose to give them no weight, no power. The problem is that when that happens, there have been plenty of people who want to push the matter, they want someone who seems to live and believe in a different way from them, to submit. Much like lots of philosophical disagreements. Big difference between "I don't approve of your choices" and "You should not be allowed to do that, and there should be consequences. And I might just be prepared to make some consequences materialize for you."
When we get into other cultures, when certain things have been cultural norms, there have been plenty of women who aided and abetted brutality against other women and girls to uphold the values that they were raised to believe.
I think that there are bad actors of any kind out there... I would GUESS that the passive-aggressive female form of judging is more widespread, but usually milder, especially in Western cultures. The form it takes from men is less common perhaps, but can be more threatening to most women when it happens.
Women will give some side eye, or quietly throw a little shade. But I don't think I've heard many women suggest that just because another woman reveals her body in some way that entices men, she DESERVES to be assaulted. I have heard men say this. That if she's allowed to arouse him, he should be allowed to satisfy himself, and if she didn't want whatever behavior he wants to do, she should not have showed off the goods to his eyes.
As Sassy has been saying...other people's OPINIONS are one thing. One can choose to give them no weight, no power. The problem is that when that happens, there have been plenty of people who want to push the matter, they want someone who seems to live and believe in a different way from them, to submit. Much like lots of philosophical disagreements. Big difference between "I don't approve of your choices" and "You should not be allowed to do that, and there should be consequences. And I might just be prepared to make some consequences materialize for you."
When we get into other cultures, when certain things have been cultural norms, there have been plenty of women who aided and abetted brutality against other women and girls to uphold the values that they were raised to believe.
Like genital mutilation. Make it hurt for a girl to have sex. That'll keep em on the farm.
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