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Whenever a man says anything to the effect that he does not believe that women enjoy sex, all I can think of is, "Imagine telling on yourself like that."
Also, Khendra, that you two look great and that cake is super cool!
I have the feeling that you have been doing something, that people have been using the internet for since it first began to really exist and proliferate...
You don't feel like the people around you in your real world, understand you or validate you. Maybe they argue with things that feel very true TO YOU. So you hit the web and start asking if anyone else feels the way you do, are you really that strange?
And I would hope that what we have all discovered, any of us who have done this in one way or another in our lives, have found that there are people who are like us, and yet people who are not. You don't have to be just like everyone else. There is room in the world for a variety of ways to be, so long as we are not harming anyone else with our behaviors and our choices... There is not "One True Way." Some people try to insist that there is, but the way I see it, that's a pretty futile and frustrating way to live. I don't see anyone ever being successful in convincing the entirety of humanity to submit to their worldview, so why do people keep trying to do so? What a pointless effort. And even if one could succeed, the only possible outcome would be a world so bland and boring, I can't imagine wanting to live in it.
I don't think that my own mechanisms of attraction work just the way that yours do, but so what? Like what you like! You don't need my permission or anyone's. And I've been to Missouri. You definitely do not need the permission of any pastor in Missouri, to be who you are...but yeah, I get what you're dealing with. lol!
Whenever a man says anything to the effect that he does not believe that women enjoy sex, all I can think of is, "Imagine telling on yourself like that."
Also, Khendra, that you two look great and that cake is super cool!
I have the feeling that you have been doing something, that people have been using the internet for since it first began to really exist and proliferate...
You don't feel like the people around you in your real world, understand you or validate you. Maybe they argue with things that feel very true TO YOU. So you hit the web and start asking if anyone else feels the way you do, are you really that strange?
And I would hope that what we have all discovered, any of us who have done this in one way or another in our lives, have found that there are people who are like us, and yet people who are not. You don't have to be just like everyone else. There is room in the world for a variety of ways to be, so long as we are not harming anyone else with our behaviors and our choices... There is not "One True Way." Some people try to insist that there is, but the way I see it, that's a pretty futile and frustrating way to live. I don't see anyone ever being successful in convincing the entirety of humanity to submit to their worldview, so why do people keep trying to do so? What a pointless effort. And even if one could succeed, the only possible outcome would be a world so bland and boring, I can't imagine wanting to live in it.
I don't think that my own mechanisms of attraction work just the way that yours do, but so what? Like what you like! You don't need my permission or anyone's. And I've been to Missouri. You definitely do not need the permission of any pastor in Missouri, to be who you are...but yeah, I get what you're dealing with. lol!
I find the ELCA to be too liberal theologically. I was an LCMS communicant member for a time, and the local church I went to here wasn't bad, but I had problems with how some of the younger pastors were doing things on Reddit, so I left for the Wisc Synod, which is what I was baptized into when I was little. Yes, they're the most conservative branch, but Lutheran theology is such (two kingdoms, etc.) that it isn't infected with a lot of other elements in other more conservative Protestant branches (Wisc Synod Lutherans are mostly pro-vax, aren't absurdly prudish in sexual matters, acknowledge headship but don't take patriarchy far beyond its Biblical bounds, etc.).'
And yeah, Gothard was something else. He led the Duggars into their special brand of legalism. He's the one who popularized the movement that women shouldn't ever work outside the home, which guys like Phillips of Vision Forum espoused as well. I remember my online Calvinist friends' wives and daughters had to work for their husbands or fathers in home-based businesses. That or full-time parenting were their only options. This is unheard of in the Confessional Lutheran branches. We respect traditional mothering and such, but there's no demand saying women can never leave the home to work. There's nothing in Scripture indicating all women must be home all the time, or even that they must be mothers. Paul said singlehood was best for both men and women, even better than marriage, though he of course allowed marriage.
Anyway, yes, Assemblies of God HQ are actually in my city. Springfield, MO has lots of Pentecostal types like that. I'm not Pentecostal for a host of reasons, so no James River Church for me.
If you do not mind telling me, what was that bizarre Calvinist's take on the Song of Solomon? This should be good!
I did attend an LCMS church for five years, but it was atypical. My main issues with them are their objection to women pastors - the bible says nothing about that, and their view of GLBTQ people. I think we are born with our sexual orientation. I always new I was a heterosexual. The Gay people who I know, similarly, did not decide to be Gay.
Yes, Gothard's insane legalism and obsession with hierarchical families and the idea that women should eschew education and a profession for parenthood are outdated, unrealistic and chauvinistic. What happens if you need two incomes? What happens when your children are grown?
He also believed that people should basically let their parents select their spouse - or something close - and ignored scripture which is clear that a man (or person) should leave his parents and cleave unto his wife - not be obedient to his parents in perpetuity.
I was confirmed in the American Lutheran church, (now part of ELCA. Other than what I mentioned, how else does ELCA differ with the LCMS?
What is the Vision Forum? I'm almost afraid to ask.
However, in response to another thing you wrote, I don't think the Bible allows for women pastors. I've had a number of discussions about that topic on various forums over the recent years. I don't think I want to get too much into it here because this is technically the Psychology forum rather than the Religion one. Unlike some of the other issues discussed in this thread, which touch upon supposed perception differences between men and women and whatnot, women pastors is strictly a theological issue, so it's probably not best to discuss on a thread on the Psychology forum.
I agree with you to an extent on the gay issue, at least as far as orientation is concerned. And we can bring psychology into this one here, so I'll elaborate more. I believe the consensus is that attraction is epigenetic, so a bit of nature and nurture. Attraction isn't strictly a choice, and we're all born into sin, so whether it's homosexual, or a man lusting after a woman -- we're always going to struggle with something. This is something where Lutheran theology makes much more sense than many Protestants' wrong emphasis on "decision theology," which ends up skewing perspective on a number of issues, like attraction. You can't really stop being attracted to what you're attracted to; the only thing you can choose is how you decide to act upon it. So I don't think the Bible approves of homosexual acts, but I think gays are nonetheless being honest that they don't really have much choice in changing their natural attractions. I recall LCMS encouraging celibacy for homosexuals, not trying to change their attractions, which they cannot help.
Gothard's system indeed falls short in addressing a number of life situations. Besides the mandate not being in the Bible, it doesn't make sense for pragmatic reasons, either. For example, if a daughter grows up, doesn't get married, and her father dies -- then what? If she has no education or job skills to fall back on, then that's quite the disaster. I'm so glad my dad never bought into stuff like that. (And by the way, my dad allowed me to marry an agnostic. That really set off the Gothardians. I still remember a Facebook thread about that back in 2014 when the Gothardians came after me, and my dad defended my then-fiance's character. I got married in 2016. I do think my marriage is doing better than that of, say, Josh Duggar and his wife's. So much for legalism.)
LCMS is more conservative than ELCA. Women cannot be pastors, gays aren't married but encouraged into celibacy since they cannot help their attractions, etc. Where they differ from Wisconsin Synod is women are allowed to vote on church issues, they are a bit looser with prayer and more direct fellowship with other Christians outside the Synod, and they view doctrine of ministry a bit more categorically than WELS does. That's really it. It won't surprise me if sometime in my lifetime, the synods resolve those minor differences and become in fellowship again. Not quite at that level yet, though.
Finally, Vision Forum was led by Doug Phillips. A lot of Gothard type ideas, dressed in more overtly Calvinist theology. Women were under the same kind of expectations, kids had to be homeschooled, etc. It fell a few years ago when -- not surprisingly -- the leader, Phillips, got involved in a sex scandal. Legalists always seem to fall into those, don't they?
However, in response to another thing you wrote, I don't think the Bible allows for women pastors. I've had a number of discussions about that topic on various forums over the recent years. I don't think I want to get too much into it here because this is technically the Psychology forum rather than the Religion one. Unlike some of the other issues discussed in this thread, which touch upon supposed perception differences between men and women and whatnot, women pastors is strictly a theological issue, so it's probably not best to discuss on a thread on the Psychology forum.
I agree with you to an extent on the gay issue, at least as far as orientation is concerned. And we can bring psychology into this one here, so I'll elaborate more. I believe the consensus is that attraction is epigenetic, so a bit of nature and nurture. Attraction isn't strictly a choice, and we're all born into sin, so whether it's homosexual, or a man lusting after a woman -- we're always going to struggle with something. This is something where Lutheran theology makes much more sense than many Protestants' wrong emphasis on "decision theology," which ends up skewing perspective on a number of issues, like attraction. You can't really stop being attracted to what you're attracted to; the only thing you can choose is how you decide to act upon it. So I don't think the Bible approves of homosexual acts, but I think gays are nonetheless being honest that they don't really have much choice in changing their natural attractions. I recall LCMS encouraging celibacy for homosexuals, not trying to change their attractions, which they cannot help.
Gothard's system indeed falls short in addressing a number of life situations. Besides the mandate not being in the Bible, it doesn't make sense for pragmatic reasons, either. For example, if a daughter grows up, doesn't get married, and her father dies -- then what? If she has no education or job skills to fall back on, then that's quite the disaster. I'm so glad my dad never bought into stuff like that. (And by the way, my dad allowed me to marry an agnostic. That really set off the Gothardians. I still remember a Facebook thread about that back in 2014 when the Gothardians came after me, and my dad defended my then-fiance's character. I got married in 2016. I do think my marriage is doing better than that of, say, Josh Duggar and his wife's. So much for legalism.)
LCMS is more conservative than ELCA. Women cannot be pastors, gays aren't married but encouraged into celibacy since they cannot help their attractions, etc. Where they differ from Wisconsin Synod is women are allowed to vote on church issues, they are a bit looser with prayer and more direct fellowship with other Christians outside the Synod, and they view doctrine of ministry a bit more categorically than WELS does. That's really it. It won't surprise me if sometime in my lifetime, the synods resolve those minor differences and become in fellowship again. Not quite at that level yet, though.
Finally, Vision Forum was led by Doug Phillips. A lot of Gothard type ideas, dressed in more overtly Calvinist theology. Women were under the same kind of expectations, kids had to be homeschooled, etc. It fell a few years ago when -- not surprisingly -- the leader, Phillips, got involved in a sex scandal. Legalists always seem to fall into those, don't they?
Yes! They definitely have a propensity for scandal. The Duggars are a perfect example. I always knew something nefarious was going on in that family. I think there are other things that we will never know.
Jimmy Swaggart, Jim Bakker, and Jessica Hahn have all had their brushes with scandal.
Earlier, Evangelist Amy Semple MacPherson, the early 20th C evangelist and preacher, and founder of the Pentecostal International Church of the Four Square had quite a colorful life for such a "Godly" woman. The most egregious example - she faked her own death! Yet her denomination is still alive and well. There is a Four Square church that is flourishing about 15 minutes away from my home in OH.
I think there are certain psychological traits that are present in many members and clergy of legalistic, fundamentalist churches. These are just personal observations.
1. Many people attracted to authoritarian churches are prone to concrete thinking. They have difficulty with nuance and shades of grey. Their critical thinking skills are poor or non existent
2. They lack the ability to self reflect and rarely examine themselves or their own motives.
3. They are authoritarian in by nature.
4. They are also punitive.
5. They are more suspicious than average people about anything new.
6. They are prone to anxiety and paranoia.
7. Many are somewhere on the Autism spectrum.
8. They are attracted to conspiracy theories.
9. The concept of "Grace" eludes them, which is why they find legalism so attractive.
There is some literature to support my observations that can be found on the internet.
1. Many people attracted to authoritarian churches are prone to concrete thinking. They have difficulty with nuance and shades of grey. Their critical thinking skills are poor or non existent
Yes. Jon Niednagel and his family of Brain Type Institute fame -- who have connections to/sympathies with Gothard, Vision Forum, Doug Wilson, and the Duggars -- are prone to this. Niednagel has always bragged that he's an ISTJ, few people are real ISTJs, and he's more concrete, black-and-white in his thinking, and reality-based, than the ENTP masses he believes comprise most of the USA and world populace.
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2. They lack the ability to self reflect and rarely examine themselves or their own motives.
Yes, thinking is extroverted rather than introspective and introverted. ISTJ, ESTJ, INTJ, and ENTJ thinking is preferred. __TJ thinking is by nature oriented outwardly.
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3. They are authoritarian in by nature.
Yes, __TJs are the most likely to want control and order and authority of all the types.
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4. They are also punitive.
Again in keeping with __TJ thought. Concrete consequences toward behavior or thinking deemed wrong in the black-and-white way.
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5. They are more suspicious than average people about anything new.
Yes. It's extroverted, intuitive perception (EN_P) that is most welcoming of novelty. _STJs instead especially want to preserve things from the past that have worked for them. They have trouble dealing with the unexpected.
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6. They are prone to anxiety and paranoia.
Maybe worry more than anxiety, per se. Paranoia due to conspiracy thinking, yes. It's conservatives who are more likely to engage in conspiracy thinking. That's why QAnon was so successful, as well as the antivaxx movement.
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. Many are somewhere on the Autism spectrum.
That might explain why I got sucked into it for a time.
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8. They are attracted to conspiracy theories.
Yep, I addressed that in 6.
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9. The concept of "Grace" eludes them, which is why they find legalism so attractive.
Yes. They like the law of God more than His Love. They are always quick to say "God is love, but that isn't all He is." Grace is a little too live-and-let-live for them. Too spontaneous, feeling. Easier for them to follow some concrete rules and laws than give grace.
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There is some literature to support my observations that can be found on the internet.
I'm not surprised.
As an INTP (Niednagel originally thought ENTP), they were too limited for me. I would kill some of their more dogmatic arguments with pure logic, locating the holes.
The older I get, the more convinced I become that extremes of conservatism and liberalism are quite bad. Yet that's where society seems to be going. I can kind of understand where hyperconservative dogmatism comes from, when one is dealing with pure chaos and the excesses of Hollywood or whatever. But I'd rather take advice from someone like Jordan Peterson than someone like Bill Gothard, or follow Lutheranism than Calvinism. Peterson and Lutheranism respect order, but also allow for paradox. Hyperconservative Calvinism, patriarchy, and other authoritarian type groups and leaders don't.
What I understand after reading that is that I made the right decision at 13-- walked out of church and never looked back, zero regrets. A bunch of control type personalities with an ancient out of date book in their hands written by a bunch of curmudgeons were not going to tell me what to believe, how to live, how to find happiness, and that the portion of the world population that aren't Christian are "going to hell".
I think it's all BULL.
And I'm very glad I don't live in Missouri.
Well...this is in the psychology section, so it's fair game as to how it applies to each of us, so there's my 3 cents on that.
When I was reading the link, I felt like to vomit. How on earth did that church get that guy to be a pastor? What a sermon. I believe because of some guys like that to become pastors, that's how they cause people to lose faith in pastors, churches and God.
I was not brought up in any religion. But at one time, I got to know this lady who was very nice and was a Christian. I went to her church with her and got to know so many gentle and kind women and men, young and "old" people there. Everybody looked clean and neat. They did not wear fancy clothes and makeup like that guy preached in that church to tell women what to do to keep their men. That was how I started to learn to read Bible and believe in God. But there are so many things happen in the world that make me having doubts. Lots of times, I ask God for forgiveness because of my doubts. Anyway, I believe in humanity. No matter you have God in your heart or not, as long as you treat people with respect and kindness, that's good enough. That's what I believe. I know I'm not supposed to judge anyone; but when I see people who say that they are Christians, this and that, or any kind of religion, and on Sunday, they hold a Bible to go to church, and the rest of the week, they do bad things and/or watch porn, I disgust them.
And for me, I am fit and know I don't look "ugly" at all. I watch my diet and exercise for good health, not for attracting or keeping my man. No way. I feel good and happy about myself. But if my man leers his eyes on other women with big boobs and butts, I don't care. I would give comments on handsome men for him to hear too. LOL. Just kidding, or true too. It did not happen though. But if for real if he had an affair, I would think and/or say I would not care for a man like that anymore for sure. I'm very independent and can take care of myself. I thought to myself "thank God for making me as who I am."
OMG, why are there so many corrupted, fake, rotten and vain priests and pastors, or whatever ones with authority, in the world?
I live in MO. I'm in conservative culture. My husband isn't conservative, but the churches I've been to often are.
I'm aware of things like this. That's why I have threads dealing with sexuality, men, women, and the different views people have.
You have to understand, when in this kind of cultural context, how challenging it is to be a visual woman. Pastors think this is only a male thing. And males have authority. So if men are shallow, it doesn't matter, because they have the authority.
What do we do when women are also visual? In this kind of culture, they deny we exist. It's only a male thing.
In another kind of culture, women get assailed for being shallow. We're told we're not special or unique for having physical or visual sexual attraction.
And yet these men in authority teach that women cannot possibly be this way.
When you live in Missouri, and you're in this kind of culture -- this is what we get inundated with.
Do you understand now?
Huh? Who asked the question? What was it?
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THIS
Yet her denomination is still alive and well. There is a Four Square church that is flourishing about 15 minutes away from my home in OH. 
