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Old Yesterday, 11:31 AM
 
Location: Southern MN
12,191 posts, read 8,580,082 times
Reputation: 45321

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic_Spork View Post
I really don't think that the cure to racism is to pretend that slavery didn't happen, wasn't that bad, or is not worth thinking about, talking about, or feeling anything about in the present. Dismissing it as "a long time ago and having no relevance to anybody today" is disingenuous.
Quote:
Originally Posted by green_mariner View Post

Drowning out the voices that talk about slavery is going to be a tall order. Why? Because that's basically the narrative of Black Americans. Slavery is literally the only reason Black Americans got here in the first place. And then being socialized into a perverted version of American life thanks to such institutions, followed by the worst aspects of southern life. You can't fully solve a problem without knowing where that problem came from. You can address parts of it, but not the whole problem.
It's a mistake to suggest that I advocate silencing the narrative. We all think in such extremes about these things for fear "our side" might not be heard.

I am talking about rehabilitation, perhaps of a whole society, and looking beyond the narrative. There is a time and place for each aspect of a troubled person's life to be addressed. It would be silly to not address all concerns. But that doesn't belong at the beginning where resistance to change must first be resolved.

I'm actually a little surprised at the knee-jerk responses. Let me explain from a therapeutic point of view. It's something I think many social justice people overlook.

Politics should have no place of prominence in the healing arts. And healing is needed. It's best done as one soul speaking to the soul of another. It's about personal pain and response to pain. At its deepest healing roots it has nothing to do with anyone's history other than their own, deeply intimate and private. What happened to me and how I have allowed it to control my behavior and therefor my life.

That's the defenseless place people need to get to in order to make change - taking responsibility for my own problem. It's painful and unfair. People can spend years missing the key because of what other people have done to them. That becomes a defense preventing self-examination. This is true no matter what color your skin is or what cultural rules you have followed. It's a natural response to considering you may need to change.

But these kids desperately need to make changes in the way they think and therefor the way they behave. Many of them may believe that their only problem is history and the way they have been treated. That's no different than nearly everybody facing change. And many will immediately reject anyone who tries to help who is not of their demographic. So we're going to need a lot of good African-American health workers to make a change.

There are times when a steady stream of anyone's familial messages will interfere with the process. I view any patient who uses the "special case" argument as someone who is stuck. There's little that can be done to help them other than material changes because "history."

Your responses come from a different way of thinking about it, a political way, which is also pealed out in the media daily. Everybody who is under seventy has gotten the message all their lives. Some of us will never see it any other way, some of us got new insights and many others of us saw the issue in totally new ways. It will always be that way with all social problems.

But in places of healing it's about thought, feelings and behaviors and owning responsibility for one's own, right or wrong, then examining if they are helping you or hurting you. Then it's time to move into the larger arena of how your life is affected by what has gone on and what is happening now. That's where the changes can be made and that's where a person can begin to build various support systems of groups, social, medical, political which will support the new ideas which hopefully will be a healthier way of thinking about himself, his world and his actions.

I like to think I promote healthy change for others. When that is not possible I hope there are other mentors available who can. There are many ways to find the best path for any individual but I know for a fact that until initial anger is reduced little personal progress can be made. Anger is good and must be worked through before a person is ready to begin healing.

Right now we are raising all of our children to be indignantly angry from the first they can comprehend. We are a culture alive with rage. It's not a good working mode.
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Old Yesterday, 11:56 AM
 
Location: Southern MN
12,191 posts, read 8,580,082 times
Reputation: 45321
Quote:
Originally Posted by green_mariner View Post

You can't fully solve a problem without knowing where that problem came from. You can address parts of it, but not the whole problem.
I'd like to briefly explain why this idea isn't written in stone. I've often heard people say they are unable to solve their addictions until they can figure out why they use. It's often used as another, perhaps unconscious, defense to stall the change.

Obviously, if the problem is behavior, the behavior needs to stop. Right now. And then people can spend the rest of their lives trying to figure it out while they don't have the problem anymore.

The same is true of psychiatric problems. The root cause may never be discovered. It might not be changeable. But behavioral change is achievable in spite of that.

"Why" questions in social change are existential and not necessary when we deal with the here and now. All they seem to provide are explanations and justifications but don't produce change. And violent people need to make changes.

It's not a bad thing that we don't have all the answers why. Perhaps most of us already understand them but it doesn't change anything.
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Old Yesterday, 12:15 PM
 
Location: So Ca
26,911 posts, read 27,115,008 times
Reputation: 25063
Quote:
Originally Posted by green_mariner View Post
I don't think it's genetic.
There's a genetic component to anti-social personality disorder (criminal term: psychopath).

One of the first studies to reveal significant alterations in gene expression related to psychopathy:

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41380-019-0488-z
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Old Yesterday, 06:09 PM
 
Location: Phoenix, AZ
20,488 posts, read 14,848,232 times
Reputation: 39767
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lodestar View Post
It's a mistake to suggest that I advocate silencing the narrative. We all think in such extremes about these things for fear "our side" might not be heard.

I am talking about rehabilitation, perhaps of a whole society, and looking beyond the narrative. There is a time and place for each aspect of a troubled person's life to be addressed. It would be silly to not address all concerns. But that doesn't belong at the beginning where resistance to change must first be resolved.

I'm actually a little surprised at the knee-jerk responses. Let me explain from a therapeutic point of view. It's something I think many social justice people overlook.

Politics should have no place of prominence in the healing arts. And healing is needed. It's best done as one soul speaking to the soul of another. It's about personal pain and response to pain. At its deepest healing roots it has nothing to do with anyone's history other than their own, deeply intimate and private. What happened to me and how I have allowed it to control my behavior and therefor my life.

That's the defenseless place people need to get to in order to make change - taking responsibility for my own problem. It's painful and unfair. People can spend years missing the key because of what other people have done to them. That becomes a defense preventing self-examination. This is true no matter what color your skin is or what cultural rules you have followed. It's a natural response to considering you may need to change.

But these kids desperately need to make changes in the way they think and therefor the way they behave. Many of them may believe that their only problem is history and the way they have been treated. That's no different than nearly everybody facing change. And many will immediately reject anyone who tries to help who is not of their demographic. So we're going to need a lot of good African-American health workers to make a change.

There are times when a steady stream of anyone's familial messages will interfere with the process. I view any patient who uses the "special case" argument as someone who is stuck. There's little that can be done to help them other than material changes because "history."

Your responses come from a different way of thinking about it, a political way, which is also pealed out in the media daily. Everybody who is under seventy has gotten the message all their lives. Some of us will never see it any other way, some of us got new insights and many others of us saw the issue in totally new ways. It will always be that way with all social problems.

But in places of healing it's about thought, feelings and behaviors and owning responsibility for one's own, right or wrong, then examining if they are helping you or hurting you. Then it's time to move into the larger arena of how your life is affected by what has gone on and what is happening now. That's where the changes can be made and that's where a person can begin to build various support systems of groups, social, medical, political which will support the new ideas which hopefully will be a healthier way of thinking about himself, his world and his actions.

I like to think I promote healthy change for others. When that is not possible I hope there are other mentors available who can. There are many ways to find the best path for any individual but I know for a fact that until initial anger is reduced little personal progress can be made. Anger is good and must be worked through before a person is ready to begin healing.

Right now we are raising all of our children to be indignantly angry from the first they can comprehend. We are a culture alive with rage. It's not a good working mode.
I have some disagreement to this. I think that anger and rage can be powerful motivators, especially when they are righteous and just. I don't think that anger itself is the problem. I think that the way it manifests is. I think that those whose rage burns hot, could hold back a little and listen to the people whose anger runs cold.

Because the best revenge is living well.

The problem is when the anger and destructive energy is turned within, or upon your community, or writ large in society when manipulators are able to wind it up and release it, one demographic against another. When they can keep the people distracted and divided.

I think that those who have long been oppressed have every right to their anger. I would never tell them that they need to let it go and adopt a peaceful attitude in order to "heal" or for any other reason. But I would suggest they master that anger, bank it like a fire for the night so the coals burn hot under a coat of ash. And consider what best to DO with it. Maybe let it drive a life of achievement to spite those who wronged you. Find your power and challenge theirs. It is what I'd like to see anyways. It isn't my place to tell anyone what to do with their anger, really, or any other emotion, least of all in this context.

I don't know if I am a warrior of any kind, social justice or otherwise. But I am sick of pandering to the middle road to keep peace with horrible people who suck up to other horrible people. Sick to death of it. (By that I mean actual people I know, in my life, not "everyone who doesn't agree with me on the internet." So anybody ready to get prickly about that - if you've never literally threatened my life, I'm not talking about you.) And speaking in a thread about "urban violence" without bringing politics into it, when it has been a political dog-whistle for decades...yeah, sorry. I'm not buying that.

And a person who is carrying the generational pain of hundreds of years of oppression, poverty and hardship...well you won't catch me suggesting they hot-yoga-and-meditation their way to a happier life.

Hell, I have a pretty good life over here, but I'm angry sometimes, about some things. Really, I think that there are times that anger is the only situationally appropriate thing to feel. And you can't just "let it go." Not when the wrong persists, and the evidence of it is still in your face. What is really being asked, I think, is that people pretend it's not there because it makes some folks uncomfortable. Well, not so long ago, I got to thinking, and being a little uncomfortable won't kill me.

I've recently read some amazing books by a woman who has participated in at least five major uprisings, major protest movements, or revolutions around the world on four different continents. She is an amazing person. I went to high school with her, and only in recent times discovered she had written books about her life, so I got them all. Her anger is like an old, old friend to her. It's inspired her to stand up for what she believes in. It's not some excuse to fail in life, it's her FIRE. And she does not give a damn if it makes the white folks uncomfortable, and boy would she have a thing or two to say if someone told her she needs to let it go in order to "heal," I suspect.
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Old Today, 09:56 AM
 
Location: Southern MN
12,191 posts, read 8,580,082 times
Reputation: 45321
She is in survivor mode. Good for her.

It is possible the majority of people who need to heal reach that spot and learn to be comfortable there. The healing message isn't for everyone for the reasons you give. Some people interpret learning to live with inner peace in the face of never-ending worldly sorrow as defeat. I suppose to some it implies that there was something wrong with them and some people will not bear that. They don't see strength there, only weakness. Different personality inclinations.

Fine if they have no complaints about their emotional/physical condition. If they are personally coping as well as they are extending their energy there is little reason to change. But I've been talking about rehabilitating violent offenders and then, only in a very oblique sense, because it's nearly impossible within the system we currently have. My expectations are absurdly high.

My thought is, that for those who get tired of burning, fighting that rising tide, being watchful for the enemy of their cause there is another way, that with time, calms the anger and the health problems it can cause and still allows a life with the awareness of where their mission lies.

It's very similar to the grief process.
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Old Today, 10:51 AM
 
Location: Phoenix, AZ
20,488 posts, read 14,848,232 times
Reputation: 39767
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lodestar View Post
She is in survivor mode. Good for her.

It is possible the majority of people who need to heal reach that spot and learn to be comfortable there. The healing message isn't for everyone for the reasons you give. Some people interpret learning to live with inner peace in the face of never-ending worldly sorrow as defeat. I suppose to some it implies that there was something wrong with them and some people will not bear that. They don't see strength there, only weakness. Different personality inclinations.

Fine if they have no complaints about their emotional/physical condition. If they are personally coping as well as they are extending their energy there is little reason to change. But I've been talking about rehabilitating violent offenders and then, only in a very oblique sense, because it's nearly impossible within the system we currently have. My expectations are absurdly high.

My thought is, that for those who get tired of burning, fighting that rising tide, being watchful for the enemy of their cause there is another way, that with time, calms the anger and the health problems it can cause and still allows a life with the awareness of where their mission lies.

It's very similar to the grief process.
I don't really think that she is in survivor mode. She always had the freedom to leave the places she was in; she chose not to. Now, actually, she is living a peaceful life in a peaceful place, and I have the impression that she is bored half out of her mind. She also trained to become a midwife, and does a lot of community assistance based activism. I really admire those whose passions drive them to do great things with their lives. And sometimes a high risk tolerance backing one's commitment to one's values can propel people to fairly astounding accomplishments. I am not personally so risk tolerant, but I take an admiring interest in those who are.

So maybe I wonder if rather than trying to convince someone whose passions have led them astray, that they should try to stop feeling the anger or fire...persuade them that its direction is self-defeating. Maybe what would help more is PURPOSE. Because I would argue that those who manage to find a purpose not only make great use of their fire, but it comes a great deal closer to achieving an objective than the act of violent crime can. Odds being quite high that doing violence will come back to destroy the perpetrator in addition to the victim.
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