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Old 12-08-2021, 04:40 PM
 
Location: Wartrace,TN
8,051 posts, read 12,761,708 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Back to NE View Post
No we have both. Only narco/gang states like Colombia, Brazil, El Salvador etc. rank up with the US in gun deaths per capita.
I know this is hard to swallow for some but young black males are the drivers of gun homicide in the U.S.
Well over half of the gun homicides in the U.S. are committed by young black males. This despite blacks being 14% +/- of our population. I'm no social scientist but there seems to be a problem in our black population that needs to be addressed.

This is why I find it hard to take BLM seriously. They are up in arms about police shootings of blacks yet silent about black-on-black violence that takes thousands of young black men's lives every year.
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Old 12-08-2021, 07:51 PM
 
Location: New York Area
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wartrace View Post
I know this is hard to swallow for some but young black males are the drivers of gun homicide in the U.S.
Well over half of the gun homicides in the U.S. are committed by young black males. This despite blacks being 14% +/- of our population. I'm no social scientist but there seems to be a problem in our black population that needs to be addressed.

This is why I find it hard to take BLM seriously. They are up in arms about police shootings of blacks yet silent about black-on-black violence that takes thousands of young black men's lives every year.
I think that is the elephant in the corner that people persist in ignoring. The solution to "mass incarceration" is to release hardened criminals; and we're surprised when they re-offend?
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Old 12-08-2021, 09:32 PM
 
215 posts, read 127,162 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CA4Now View Post
His parents apparently didn't think anything was wrong with his behavior. You wonder how so many of the parents of kids who do this are so blind to what's going on (and that goes all the way back to Columbine).

On Monday, a teacher saw the suspect looking at photos of ammunition on his cell phone during class, which prompted a meeting with a counselor and another staff member. During that discussion, the student told them that he and his mother had recently gone to a shooting range and that "shooting sports are a family hobby," Throne wrote in the letter.

The school tried to reach the student's mother that day, but didn't hear back until the following day when his parents confirmed the student's story, Throne said.

After school officials reached out to Jennifer Crumbley regarding her son searching the web for ammunition, she texted him saying, "LOL I'm not mad at you. You have to learn not to get caught," prosecutors have said.


https://www.cnn.com/2021/12/05/us/mi...day/index.html

I've been waiting for someone to bring up this case---was mildly surprised to not to find it posted on CD.

Regarding the parents: I honestly feel that this was not a case of 'blindness', but rather they intentionally raised a sociopath. Something is seriously off about the parents. I wouldn't be surprised if they were abusing him. They should be in jail.
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Old 12-09-2021, 09:36 AM
 
Location: Southern MN
12,038 posts, read 8,403,014 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 51squirrel33 View Post
more and more it's surfacing that a lot of violent behavior is modern time challenges originated on some social media that idle people found worthwhile becoming a part of
Good (angelic) asks for sacrifices while bad (satanic) always offers rewards now and here.
And I've observed a steady pattern of "scientific" denial that the music we listen to and the movies we watch have anything to do with influencing behavior. Every parent knows your child will try to emulate what he admires.

It started in the '50s and '60s with parents' concerns about comic books and television. In general their worries were dismissed as magical thinking, superstitious.

I think we've been had by Big Business funding scientific studies.

No need to ban or censor. Just parent. Compare and contrast with the child introducing values that are healthy for him. Help him make good choices. Talk about how hard it is.


Quote:
Originally Posted by NoMansLands View Post

This is not rocket science folks, inner city young men are taking the easiest path of least resistance with the most instant gratification.
It's about money, community, education, and opportunity as it always has been.
I'd like to add one more thing - "power."

I don't for a minute buy that old red herring that poverty is the cause of crime. Crime and poverty are no strangers to each other but there are people worldwide who live hand-to-mouth who live honest lives. You can give a thief money for life and still have a thief.

Everyone needs to feel a sense of agency in their own lives. For mentally healthy people it is possible to create that through what you give value, what becomes important to you. Those are our most adaptable citizens. They respond well to rehabilitation.

For people with mental health issues there seem to be two choices to achieving a sense of personal power - through victimhood or through victimizing others. Some can be helped by learning what can be most valuable in their lives. (Long dissertation here.) Victims victimize but the rehabilitation work differs.

But those with sociopathic traits who are not held accountable for every socially deviant act from the start, and consistently, are already lost to a sense of personal power by about eighteen years. They will achieve it by dominating and exploiting others because they have no inner sense of self or self-control.

Society is less to blame for failure to do everything right for them and more to blame for feeding them a steady diet of "It's somebody else's fault you are this way." And that's what we do.
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Old 12-10-2021, 06:24 AM
 
Location: So Ca
26,717 posts, read 26,776,017 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lodestar View Post
But those with sociopathic traits who are not held accountable for every socially deviant act from the start, and consistently, are already lost to a sense of personal power by about eighteen years. They will achieve it by dominating and exploiting others because they have no inner sense of self or self-control.
True. It's unfortunate that there doesn't seem to be enough early intervention.

Time and again, our research shows, adults have denied that an eventual school shooter is capable of serious violence or have failed to act on warning signs — and a child’s explicit cries for help. Shootings and threats of shootings in schools are only rising. Our children are under fire.

One painful lesson from the Michigan attack: Cameras, security guards and active-shooter drills don’t prevent school shootings. We need a nationally funded mandate that would create multi-agency threat assessment and crisis response teams in every school and community so that children in crisis feel seen and heard, and can be immediately connected to the help and support they need.

We also need to make sure those children can’t grab a gun left lying around — or worse, use one that an adult handed to them.


https://www.latimes.com/opinion/stor...arents-charged
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Old 12-10-2021, 08:49 AM
 
Location: Southern MN
12,038 posts, read 8,403,014 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CA4Now View Post
True. It's unfortunate that there doesn't seem to be enough early intervention.

Time and again, our research shows, adults have denied that an eventual school shooter is capable of serious violence or have failed to act on warning signs — and a child’s explicit cries for help. Shootings and threats of shootings in schools are only rising. Our children are under fire.

One painful lesson from the Michigan attack: Cameras, security guards and active-shooter drills don’t prevent school shootings. We need a nationally funded mandate that would create multi-agency threat assessment and crisis response teams in every school and community so that children in crisis feel seen and heard, and can be immediately connected to the help and support they need.

We also need to make sure those children can’t grab a gun left lying around — or worse, use one that an adult handed to them.


https://www.latimes.com/opinion/stor...arents-charged
Those are grand and hopeful plans. But futile and unnecessary in my opinion. Why spend all that money and manpower affecting the lives of all in trying to prevent the behavior of a few? In a free country the onus should be placed on2 the rights of the offender.

I agree about failing to act early which carries all its own predictive problems. Legally it's a nightmare.

The answer lies in another impossibility - observant and educated parents who respond in a therapeutic manner at the first signs of deviancy. Familial failure to respond to a child's needs will forever be at the root of his adult problems.

I hate to say that as a parent but I wholeheartedly believe it. The parent's abilities and behavior set the tone at the beginning.

It goes without saying that carries issues of blame and punishment which at some point should no longer be relevant.

We also have to view these deaths in realistic perspective. People, and rightly so, have a violent gut reaction to this kind of violation of children's safety. But they only represent a small percentage of preventable homicides. Cold facts.
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Old 12-10-2021, 10:50 AM
 
2,690 posts, read 1,610,431 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lodestar View Post
I'd like to add one more thing - "power."

I don't for a minute buy that old red herring that poverty is the cause of crime. Crime and poverty are no strangers to each other but there are people worldwide who live hand-to-mouth who live honest lives. You can give a thief money for life and still have a thief.

Everyone needs to feel a sense of agency in their own lives. For mentally healthy people it is possible to create that through what you give value, what becomes important to you. Those are our most adaptable citizens. They respond well to rehabilitation.

For people with mental health issues there seem to be two choices to achieving a sense of personal power - through victimhood or through victimizing others. Some can be helped by learning what can be most valuable in their lives. (Long dissertation here.) Victims victimize but the rehabilitation work differs.

But those with sociopathic traits who are not held accountable for every socially deviant act from the start, and consistently, are already lost to a sense of personal power by about eighteen years. They will achieve it by dominating and exploiting others because they have no inner sense of self or self-control.

Society is less to blame for failure to do everything right for them and more to blame for feeding them a steady diet of "It's somebody else's fault you are this way." And that's what we do.
Ask yourself what you have that these inner city criminals do not have. Besides the obvious of money and education, and less obvious perhaps--good role model, father present, and then what else? What do you have that they do not?
How about respect. If a young inner city black male doesn't have a father present, or that father is not a good role model, it becomes generational. I am not saying that to judge the father as he also may have not had a role model of a father. I am pointing it out as a factor that becomes generational and then cultural. Cultural/generational trends are much harder to fix. Maybe his father is in prison, maybe his father is dead, another one shot.
This respect that you and I have, we take for granted. We respect ourselves. Others respect us. We feel value in our lives because of this respect. Now imagine that respect did not exist, that others freely call you the N word, enslaved your family generations ago, and you feel invisible to the society that is thriving, owns nice houses and nice things, has an education, has a career. Add to that if you had a very poor education and can barely read. Add to that your peers disrespecting authority. Add to that those around you influencing you with how easy it is to make money by stealing or selling drugs instead of working 40 hours a week at McDonalds, you can make the same in an hour stealing or selling drugs. Nobody in the world of "have's" cares about you one bit, nor respects you, so why should you fight that, and even if you wanted to, how would you go about it?
Us sitting here in our comfortable homes with education and degreed, and with careers, have no idea whatsoever what it is like to have grown up in the inner city with no respect coming your way unless you can find it from your peers, and that's where this "power" you are imagining comes from. It's being recognized by somebody, and that would be peers. Those peers do not have a privileged life nor education nor career nor respect either. This is the snowball effect.

This is not a simple problem, this is a very complex problem with a lot of things contributing to the eventual failure of an inner city young black male. The society (liberal view in this case) claim of "it's somebody else's fault" has some validity to it. We, white people, held the blacks down for generations, and this is not argumentative, it is factual. Now we as a society are paying that price, fear to walk freely down a street in our own cities.
So how do we change this cultural generational problem? Yes, we could come down hard on them with building new prisons, for people who simply don't know any other life. Or, we could do as Barack Obama was doing, trying to change things from within in Chicago. Frankly, we have a lot of work to do as society at large, with policies to better educate and enable these young men to have other choices.
The inner city problems were created by the views of those who generationally punished with racism while benefitting simultaneously from their labor. Now we have a severe problem that will take generations to fix.
They've been shown by society for generations that they have no value. They do not value themselves. Think about what that must feel like.

Last edited by NoMansLands; 12-10-2021 at 10:59 AM..
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Old 12-10-2021, 02:34 PM
 
Location: Southern MN
12,038 posts, read 8,403,014 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoMansLands View Post
They've been shown by society for generations that they have no value. They do not value themselves. Think about what that must feel like.
I'm not sure that this problem requires thinking about feelings. Our courts don't recognize angry or hurt feelings as justification for beating a child, for instance.

And what about a brother or sister who doesn't choose the violent path? Not all inner-city Black people feel worthless and are violent because of it. And not all prosperous or law-abiding citizens are indifferent about them. There has been a flood of legislation to create opportunities paid by those peoples' taxes. And their children have pursued college educations designed to assist those less fortunate in record numbers since thee '60s.

Must be more going on here than victimization.

By the time a child is violent in public there are many failures along the way. Some damage is nearly insurmountable.

Hurt feelings, anger, racism, lack of opportunity, whatever, eventually it has to come down to the stark reality of "How many violent people do you want on the street?"
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Old 12-10-2021, 03:13 PM
 
2,690 posts, read 1,610,431 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lodestar View Post
I'm not sure that this problem requires thinking about feelings. Our courts don't recognize angry or hurt feelings as justification for beating a child, for instance.

And what about a brother or sister who doesn't choose the violent path? Not all inner-city Black people feel worthless and are violent because of it. And not all prosperous or law-abiding citizens are indifferent about them. There has been a flood of legislation to create opportunities paid by those peoples' taxes. And their children have pursued college educations designed to assist those less fortunate in record numbers since thee '60s.

Must be more going on here than victimization.

By the time a child is violent in public there are many failures along the way. Some damage is nearly insurmountable.

Hurt feelings, anger, racism, lack of opportunity, whatever, eventually it has to come down to the stark reality of "How many violent people do you want on the street?"
It does require thinking about feelings. These people have feelings the same as you and I, and why would we disregard their feelings? Humans are motivated by their feelings, it's a large part of being human, and absolutely key to understanding.

I'm not defending their violent actions. I am though, willing to look deeper, acknowledge they are people too with feelings just like the rest of us. It's too easy to call them "thugs" and write them off, and when angry at some news story, I can find myself going down that path as so many of us do.
If you don't believe the things I have written about how this snowball effect happens in the inner city ghettos, then tell me why it happens and why these people don't just shape up and behave and go seize opportunity. I'm not excusing any behaviors, nor explaining why some fall down this path while others don't, I haven't studied this subject to be an expert, but I can rationalize what I do see happening and what a difficult life it must be to break out of that mold.
Nobody wants violent people on the street. I do believe that recent news such as reducing the penalty for some crimes like shoplifting absolutely has backfired and should be rescinded. Will being tougher on crime help? Quite possibly with immediate danger levels. However we can't just empty out the inner cities and move them into more and bigger prisons. We need a permanent fix. That's the complicated situation I wrote about in my last post. It's systemic, generational, and cultural. Not an easy fix at all, but filling prisons isn't going to fix it either.
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Old 12-11-2021, 07:52 AM
 
Location: So Ca
26,717 posts, read 26,776,017 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoMansLands View Post
This respect that you and I have, we take for granted. We respect ourselves. Others respect us. We feel value in our lives because of this respect. Now imagine that respect did not exist, that others freely call you the N word, enslaved your family generations ago, and you feel invisible to the society that is thriving, owns nice houses and nice things, has an education, has a career. Add to that if you had a very poor education and can barely read. Add to that your peers disrespecting authority. Add to that those around you influencing you with how easy it is to make money by stealing or selling drugs instead of working 40 hours a week at McDonalds, you can make the same in an hour stealing or selling drugs....

The inner city problems were created by the views of those who generationally punished with racism while benefitting simultaneously from their labor. Now we have a severe problem that will take generations to fix.
They've been shown by society for generations that they have no value. They do not value themselves. Think about what that must feel like.
I agree with you about this. What I'd like to understand is some of these teenagers and young adults who come from intact families, have most likely never experienced racism or poverty and have not been emotionally, academically or financially deprived. For example, Ethan Crumbley of the most recent school shooting in Michigan, Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold of Columbine, Adam Lanza of Sandy Hook, Dylann Roof of Charleston, Nikolas Cruz of Parkland, FL shootings, James Holmes of the Aurora, CO (Batman) shootings, Jared Loughner of the Gabrielle Gifford shooting in Tucson, AZ....
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