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Generally, it's a cold place, but that's the nature of anonymous forums. Which is strange because I believe we are really in a broad sense ... socializing here.
I don't always respond to posts that are paragraphs long because I don't always want to go down the rabbit hole of having a highly abstract argument/debate. Nothing having to do with the poster.
I definitely think W/E is a little colder than some of the other subs and offers a very one-track minded view, not sure why that is.
If I actually want real career advice, I'll go to another forum I post at which is unrelated to careers and they'll give me a broader range. Like ... 'my brother worked at Home Depot for a few years. It's not bad, this and that were the positive and negatives.'
Here, it's like ... 'Work at Home Depot?, I'd rather jump off a bridge.' Even the other place has a high concentration of 'white collar desk jockeys' but at least there's more of a perspective.
As far as breaking the cycle of misery, that's what this thread is about no? Some of that is in our heads.
100% agree. "Cold" is an apt description. IMO, W/E is akin to the Relationships forum, which is largely comprised of people who have very rigid, awkward standards of what a relationship is supposed to be. It winds up feeling like you have the career-equivalent of pick up artists, red pillers, and incels trying to dictate and navigate your career for you. I wouldn't let these types of people near my romantic relationships, let alone my career goals and paths.
I think that the problem with the "too many career options" thing is how we push the concept of the education to career path on young people.
Kids just are not ready to make decisions that chart the entire course of their lives. It is ludicrous that we expect people in their teens to make decisions that can and will affect where they end up by old age.
I've always wished that there was more of a "training wheels" stage for young people. That they could leave their homes, yes, around 18 sure, but then be 100% protected from conceiving offspring, being locked into relationships of any kind that they could not escape without a struggle, and not expecting them to invest a huge amount of time or money or effort that they could never recover sinking costs into a path that they might regret. Like reasonable, affordable little studio apartments for ages 18-25 where they could live free while either going to college or working a starter job, just to give them a little bit of time to figure out their future. And "college" at that point would be extended high school more or less...free with a small living expense stipend maybe, but not this huge "I took out loans that will haunt me until I die to hopefully begin training for a career I am too young to know if I even want" thing.
Some young people make good choices that they don't regret later, but I just think it's bad general policy to expect most to. The military is, in a sense, about as close as it gets to what I'm thinking of, but even there, they are risking their health and wellbeing even if they never go to war. Even the training can wreck a person's body for life.
The stakes are just so high, that we put on young people's shoulders, and I think that it's a shame. But in that sense, is it really the over-abundance of choices causing the issue or is it the stage at which we expect people to be making them?
I think that the problem with the "too many career options" thing is how we push the concept of the education to career path on young people.
Kids just are not ready to make decisions that chart the entire course of their lives. It is ludicrous that we expect people in their teens to make decisions that can and will affect where they end up by old age.
I've always wished that there was more of a "training wheels" stage for young people. That they could leave their homes, yes, around 18 sure, but then be 100% protected from conceiving offspring, being locked into relationships of any kind that they could not escape without a struggle, and not expecting them to invest a huge amount of time or money or effort that they could never recover sinking costs into a path that they might regret. Like reasonable, affordable little studio apartments for ages 18-25 where they could live free while either going to college or working a starter job, just to give them a little bit of time to figure out their future. And "college" at that point would be extended high school more or less...free with a small living expense stipend maybe, but not this huge "I took out loans that will haunt me until I die to hopefully begin training for a career I am too young to know if I even want" thing.
Some young people make good choices that they don't regret later, but I just think it's bad general policy to expect most to. The military is, in a sense, about as close as it gets to what I'm thinking of, but even there, they are risking their health and wellbeing even if they never go to war. Even the training can wreck a person's body for life.
The stakes are just so high, that we put on young people's shoulders, and I think that it's a shame. But in that sense, is it really the over-abundance of choices causing the issue or is it the stage at which we expect people to be making them?
I largely agree with your sentiments. But what's a real-world solution look like for a problem like this? Nobody wants to actually invest in a future workforce (or anything else for that matter), so people are left to figure all this out on their own and at their own expense. Companies don't believe in investing in future, long term people assets, and this is apparent by the lack of entry level work, OJT, and training departments within organizations.
There is seemingly so much resentment towards younger generations from older generations, especially on this forum. It's no wonder people feel so lost and hopeless and judged and depressed.
I largely agree with your sentiments. But what's a real-world solution look like for a problem like this? Nobody wants to actually invest in a future workforce (or anything else for that matter), so people are left to figure all this out on their own and at their own expense. Companies don't believe in investing in future, long term people assets, and this is apparent by the lack of entry level work, OJT, and training departments within organizations.
There is seemingly so much resentment towards younger generations from older generations, especially on this forum. It's no wonder people feel so lost and hopeless and judged and depressed.
Well, it's been my opinion (unpopular though it may be with some) that when you cannot trust business because their interest lies too much in shorter term gains or solutions that they get as cheaply as possible, and their tendency to try and privatize gains and socialize losses, at some point there is a role for government to play. Either in putting in guardrails against the most exploitative practices of business, or helping to rescue people from the traps set by the business side of power, or both.
Job Corps actually has huge potential, and a lot of people don't even know that it exists. I would really wish they'd revamp and expand that program, but it's not exactly profitable so...if it didn't fly quietly and cheaply under the radar during certain *ahem* administrations, then it likely would have been eliminated by now.
There is an age cap, I think 24, but young people can voluntarily go and receive free room and board and free vocational training, even remedial high school stuff and driver's ed. It costs nothing! I think that participants get up to 2 years total to make what they can of it, something like that. But I think that a lot, maybe most, of the kids who go, are either from the juvie or foster system...not by any requirement, just because who knows about these kinds of programs and is likely to use them? Kids going from one state program to another.
There is often criticism that government does not do a great job of things that it tries to do, and I get that, and have seen that, but I have always believed that it never HAD to be that way. That a big reason that's the case, is that for decades one party has been determined to reinforce that concept (the government's help isn't worth having and will never be done well, and therefore the government should not be expected to do things for the people and should instead pump money to the rich and hope that it "trickles down" instead.) I mean, if that's their whole agenda, then of course they'll do what they can to hamstring anything that is meant to help the people, so they can get support to take it away.
LOL reminds me of when my kid said he shouldn't have to do the dishes because he was "bad at it" and when I made him do it anyways, he broke the dishwasher to try and prop up his point and get out of ever having to do it again.
Well, it's been my opinion (unpopular though it may be with some) that when you cannot trust business because their interest lies too much in shorter term gains or solutions that they get as cheaply as possible, and their tendency to try and privatize gains and socialize losses, at some point there is a role for government to play. Either in putting in guardrails against the most exploitative practices of business, or helping to rescue people from the traps set by the business side of power, or both.
Job Corps actually has huge potential, and a lot of people don't even know that it exists. I would really wish they'd revamp and expand that program, but it's not exactly profitable so...if it didn't fly quietly and cheaply under the radar during certain *ahem* administrations, then it likely would have been eliminated by now.
There is an age cap, I think 24, but young people can voluntarily go and receive free room and board and free vocational training, even remedial high school stuff and driver's ed. It costs nothing! I think that participants get up to 2 years total to make what they can of it, something like that. But I think that a lot, maybe most, of the kids who go, are either from the juvie or foster system...not by any requirement, just because who knows about these kinds of programs and is likely to use them? Kids going from one state program to another.
There is often criticism that government does not do a great job of things that it tries to do, and I get that, and have seen that, but I have always believed that it never HAD to be that way. That a big reason that's the case, is that for decades one party has been determined to reinforce that concept (the government's help isn't worth having and will never be done well, and therefore the government should not be expected to do things for the people and should instead pump money to the rich and hope that it "trickles down" instead.) I mean, if that's their whole agenda, then of course they'll do what they can to hamstring anything that is meant to help the people, so they can get support to take it away.
LOL reminds me of when my kid said he shouldn't have to do the dishes because he was "bad at it" and when I made him do it anyways, he broke the dishwasher to try and prop up his point and get out of ever having to do it again.
I know it's just my opinion, but I wholeheartedly agree with everything you've stated here.
That is an odd false equivalent right there... How rich, in the past? How poor, now? A person making minimum wage now will struggle to pay $1,500/month in rent and may wind up homeless. I think that at any time in history, living in a precarious situation where you are not certain if you will continue to be housed or have your other basic survival needs met, for whatever reason, is not a happy situation.
You cannot compare today, dollar to dollar, to 150 years ago. It is nonsensical to try.
The more logical question is, "what security can you obtain for how many hours of your labor?"
Also? 150 years ago, our children would be working pretty much as soon as they could walk and understand instructions, especially people who worked in agriculture or trades, or the poor to middle classes. Child labor laws came about in the 1930s, passed by the same President who brought us the New Deal.
It doesn't matter if somebody's got a TV or not.
Not to mention that I am in my mid-40s now. Life expectancy in 1860 was 39, so I would likely be dead, probably from child birth. If I wasn’t dead, that probably meant I would have had a ton of kids or be a spinster in some sort of work house. None of these options sound good.
Very interesting thread; I have read most of the posts but I haven't seen any that mention the thought uppermost in my mind as a response to the OP or our current difficulties as a species: We are still animals, mammals to be precise.
Granted, we have self-awareness, abstract reasoning, etc. etc., but we are still animals. We may believe ourselves to be superior to other animals/species, even though we are currently discovering that other species may have a form of self-awareness themselves and are capable of emotions like empathy and compassion, gratitude, and the ability to navigate by the sun, learn sign language, and learn/respond to human sounds as well as a 3 year old human child. The limits of other species are unknown as we are still learning thru science and study.
But what we humans do not seem to discuss are our own needs or limitations as animals. After our basic needs of survival are met, we still want and need community, affirmation and a sense of belonging, as do other animals... I may be wrong, but I think that these needs were more easily attained in the past. Today, we seem to be far more adrift as individuals looking for our place in this world. In the past, our place was more 'static,' whether good or bad. Today, not so much, as modern society has 'exploded' in all directions, leaving us feeling more alone and unsure of our place in this world. Technology has in many ways, perhaps fueled our sense of disorientation. Beginning around the time of the industrial revolution, the western world has raced forward, at double, triple time in upending an individual's place in society, and that continuum has continued to accelerate at a greater and greater pace.
Today's modern, vastly technological world can be very confusing and perhaps has moved at such a pace that our human/animal minds are having difficulty in adjusting to that pace... and the fear or dread or inertia, of not feeling a belonging to any place or role may simply overwhelm many of us into a what--existential depression we do not know how to identify or overcome? I think that is what is happening to many people in the world today.
Progress is a word that is assumed by many to be a wholly positive word; a linear transgression towards further good. But is that really true?
"The myth of progress states that civilization has moved, is moving, and will move in a desirable direction."
Right now, I believe that the current societal 'progress,' is rooted/based on materialism and consumerism. I do not see how this could be a good thing for humanity, and I reject it as far as I am able. I believe some of us would rather be a peasant; participating in a community that we could understand and have legitimate ties to that would affirm our existence in that community, striving and yes, maybe suffering-- rather than be a lone individual without any understanding of our place in this world or any sense of belonging in a vast chaotic modern world.
Fundamentally, I think that 'progress' may have outstripped the ability of many of us to survive with any sense of peace or contentedness. Depression may once have been a feeling related to poverty or fear, but in today's world it is a more dangerous feeling of aloneness, confusion, and possible futility of our ability to find a place for ourselves in today's world.
So yeah, a few anthropologists have been known to 'go native,' (and that choice is almost gone from this world now).
I do wonder what will happen next to our species that has grown probably all out of proportion for its' own good. A great book to read is "Things Fall Apart," by Chinua Achebe.
Because luxuries doesn't equate to happiness. That's why.
Appreciation of what one may have has nothing to do with satisfaction.
Satisfaction is subjective.
Happiness, also, I suppose.
Why are some human beings satisfied with what they have an not others who have more?
Because human beings are like that.
WHY are we like that?.....ask the universe, creator, G-d?
Happiness, like marrying for love, is a relatively new concept. People in my grandparents' generation didn't worry about if their job "fulfilled" them; they did what they had to do in order to survive. I'm not saying that one way is necessarily better than another, but we can take lessons from that past in order to simplify our lives today.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Igor Blevin
We are probably the most stressed out generation in the history of the world.
The good new is, survival has never been easier. That is a load off our minds. You are right that we have it better than almost everyone in every previous era featuring hand-to-mouth existence.
At the same time, the pace of life has never been faster. Life has never been more confusing for the young. You have too many choices with no direction, but you are supposed to know what you want to do the rest of your life. If you guess wrong past college age, you are pretty much screwed. Oh, many ambitious and energetic people overcome their failed circumstances, but many more are doomed by them, or feel that way, which becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy.
For all time, Men were just expected to do what their father did. Women were expected to become wives and mothers. Life was hard, but simple.
Today, we are overwhelmed with way too many choices. The assumed bar we are supposed to be aiming for to keep up with the Jones's is lofty and usually unattainable, making everybody wonder if they are failures. The stress level is out of this world. Nobody has time. Drivers waste hours in traffic. Parents spend hours shuttling children between school and structured activities. People are spending more time at work than they have since WWII.
Who eats together as a family?
Man was never meant to live the way we currently do. It is not natural and we know it. It causes a lot of mild mental and emotional problems. Many many millions are on anxiety or anti-depressant medications. We were never meant to live like this. It is TOO MUCH.
In many ways, we live worse today than people did when life was harder but simpler and more sane. Death has been largely defeated, but life has become a pressure cooker.
Can't rep you again. This is spot-on. Too many choices = paralysis by analysis. I really love your last sentence and may steal it: Death has been largely defeated, but life has become a pressure cooker.
The kids that I know who DON'T have all of those things, who AREN'T being shuttled to one practice after another, who actually sit down with their families for meals- THOSE are the kids who are happier and more content. Those are the kids who have the time to really dream and just BE.
During the height of the pandemic lockdowns, in spring/early summer 2020, a good friend told me how her daughters LOVED that they weren't going from one structured event to another. Sure, the one missed dancing a bit, but they so enjoyed just running around in the backyard. Sadly, we went right back to the way we were as soon as things opened up again. Human beings need to be knocked over the head a few million times before a lesson really sinks in.
Very interesting thread; I have read most of the posts but I haven't seen any that mention the thought uppermost in my mind as a response to the OP or our current difficulties as a species: We are still animals, mammals to be precise.
Granted, we have self-awareness, abstract reasoning, etc. etc., but we are still animals. We may believe ourselves to be superior to other animals/species, even though we are currently discovering that other species may have a form of self-awareness themselves and are capable of emotions like empathy and compassion, gratitude, and the ability to navigate by the sun, learn sign language, and learn/respond to human sounds as well as a 3 year old human child. The limits of other species are unknown as we are still learning thru science and study.
But what we humans do not seem to discuss are our own needs or limitations as animals. After our basic needs of survival are met, we still want and need community, affirmation and a sense of belonging, as do other animals... I may be wrong, but I think that these needs were more easily attained in the past. Today, we seem to be far more adrift as individuals looking for our place in this world. In the past, our place was more 'static,' whether good or bad. Today, not so much, as modern society has 'exploded' in all directions, leaving us feeling more alone and unsure of our place in this world. Technology has in many ways, perhaps fueled our sense of disorientation. Beginning around the time of the industrial revolution, the western world has raced forward, at double, triple time in upending an individual's place in society, and that continuum has continued to accelerate at a greater and greater pace.
Today's modern, vastly technological world can be very confusing and perhaps has moved at such a pace that our human/animal minds are having difficulty in adjusting to that pace... and the fear or dread or inertia, of not feeling a belonging to any place or role may simply overwhelm many of us into a what--existential depression we do not know how to identify or overcome? I think that is what is happening to many people in the world today.
Progress is a word that is assumed by many to be a wholly positive word; a linear transgression towards further good. But is that really true?
"The myth of progress states that civilization has moved, is moving, and will move in a desirable direction."
Right now, I believe that the current societal 'progress,' is rooted/based on materialism and consumerism. I do not see how this could be a good thing for humanity, and I reject it as far as I am able. I believe some of us would rather be a peasant; participating in a community that we could understand and have legitimate ties to that would affirm our existence in that community, striving and yes, maybe suffering-- rather than be a lone individual without any understanding of our place in this world or any sense of belonging in a vast chaotic modern world.
Fundamentally, I think that 'progress' may have outstripped the ability of many of us to survive with any sense of peace or contentedness. Depression may once have been a feeling related to poverty or fear, but in today's world it is a more dangerous feeling of aloneness, confusion, and possible futility of our ability to find a place for ourselves in today's world.
So yeah, a few anthropologists have been known to 'go native,' (and that choice is almost gone from this world now).
I do wonder what will happen next to our species that has grown probably all out of proportion for its' own good. A great book to read is "Things Fall Apart," by Chinua Achebe.
One thing that has occurred to me is that I feel some individuals have adapted better to changing things than others.
I read one of those meme things with the screenshotted posts on social media where a guy was saying that for the first time in history, in dating, men have to get women to actually LIKE THEM. Like women don't need to get with men just to survive anymore, so men have new standards to meet and many are not adapting well.
But some are. Some are more successful in this environment than they ever would have been in "need you to survive" times.
And some people are adapting well to modern living with all of the tech and everything, and some aren't. I don't personally feel the same discomfort as many do, because I know that belonging in a community of people is a necessity for me, and so I just use the internet to FIND them, and then go engage with them in real life. There is a community out there for practically any kind of an interest, after all...I recently became aware of something called the National Toothpick Holder Collectors Society! They have conventions! They existed prior to the internet, but their membership has surely grown a great deal since.
But I feel like there are not only a lot of isolated folks sitting at home just interacting via screens and feeling isolated and unhappy about it all, but they can be downright defensive of this strategy!
I think that there is a lot of denial out there about things that people are choosing to do that aren't very healthy for them or conducive to achievement of their stated goals.
I also see that a lot of the lonely people want a partner, but they want to grab hold of another person and expect EVERY human need they have to be met by them and "we'll live happily ever after in a little bubble" and I think that human beings need more than that.
I do agree that unfettered materialism and capitalism gone wild is not good for most people, it's ultimately unsustainable. It isn't bad as PART of an overall social system, but it's got to have checks in place or like anything taken to an extreme, it becomes destructive. But it's not the first time in human, or even American history, that it's done that and things had to change to set us back on a better path. People forget, but it has happened before.
Oh, and related...last night I was watching old episodes of a British quiz show called "QI" and it was an episode themed around the word, "Happiness" I think... At one point the host explained that a few countries have tried to implement measures of their populations' happiness, and experts have attempted to find methods to quantify overall happiness in populations of people... And one of few metrics that seems to actually hold up, is that a country's population is happier when there is less wealth inequality. Even if everyone is relatively poor, that's not the issue, it's the question of how big a gap there is between the richest and the poorest. I found that interesting.
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