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The adversity I've experienced has beaten me down, made me cynical and not trusting in any institution, company or gov't, not to mention dishonest people as individuals.
The more dominant and the richer, beat down the less dominant and poorer. Justice is nearly impossible to come by unless you are wealthy with great lawyers.
Sonic Spork put it much more eloquently. The "American Dream" is long dead (with the usual few exceptions)
I think you are right. In fact people from comfortable backgrounds often do well. They are given easy access to education, money and connections. Many of the doctors and lawyers I knew were the children of doctors or lawyers or at least came from upper middle class backgrounds. A few people I know, like myself, started with nothing, came from working class backgrounds and worked our way into a comfortable middle class lifestyle. But many others I know started in poverty and stayed there.
Keep in mind, even if they didn't always have the attention of their parents, they probably had better resources growing up that made them into better-suited adults much earlier on. So much of what I learned about the real world came long after I left my parents' home and lived on my own for a bit. I love my parents, but they were terrible mentors. At times, it felt like I was so far behind other people. In a lot of ways, it's true and I was.
For instance, I have a close friend whose brother is working for some investment firm that his uncle runs (I think) making $250k/year. He's 24, struggled in high school to be a C student, went to an average university. This is not your archetypal success story. He was not someone who had much interest in academics at all; in fact, he struggled academically. But people like this are well connected. In other instances, they received education and life lessons that most of us learned much later in life, setting us back quite a bit in relation to them. The offspring of Mark Zuckerberg and Priscilla Chan are likely getting the best educations and being taught how to deal effectively in the real world at a much younger age than some child of a truck driver or convenience store employee.
The problem with these axioms is that they are very VERY broad brushed. It really doesn’t work that way in real life. Some people do have the capacity to pick themselves up and dust himself off and keep going. And some people don’t. Everybody reacts differently.
But this is an extremely human attribute. People want very easy solutions to very complex issues. And it just doesn’t work that way. If you hit a hitch in the road people will immediately tell you to go to therapy. I was told to go to therapy after my husband died, I did and it was an absolute utter failure — the woman was useless. She actually threw me into depression. And then she fired me. And then I felt better. I didn’t need therapy, I needed to grieve.
There’s another axiom out there which relates to that. If all you have is a hammer in your toolbox, every problem will look like a nail. And let’s face it — there’s a lot of people who only have hammers.
I know a ton of people who grew up in chaos, utter chaos, and they have replicated that in their lives. It’s what they know, it’s where they’re comfortable. So the fact that they can cope well in utter chaos does that make them overcoming adversity? I don’t think so. Maybe they do.
I think it’s all perception.
That’s why I don’t like adages. They’re amusing talking points, but in reality they don’t actually really say much although they do sound good. Frankly, I’ve done very well by taking the opposite tack of a lot of these things that “should be carved in stone”.
Good post.
I remember looking to other families that looked like they were perfect. Behind closed doors was another story.
Quote:
Originally Posted by modest
Keep in mind, even if they didn't always have the attention of their parents, they probably had better resources growing up that made them into better-suited adults much earlier on. So much of what I learned about the real world came long after I left my parents' home and lived on my own for a bit. I love my parents, but they were terrible mentors. At times, it felt like I was so far behind other people. In a lot of ways, it's true and I was.
For instance, I have a close friend whose brother is working for some investment firm that his uncle runs (I think) making $250k/year. He's 24, struggled in high school to be a C student, went to an average university. This is not your archetypal success story. He was not someone who had much interest in academics at all; in fact, he struggled academically. But people like this are well connected. In other instances, they received education and life lessons that most of us learned much later in life, setting us back quite a bit in relation to them. The offspring of Mark Zuckerberg and Priscilla Chan are likely getting the best educations and being taught how to deal effectively in the real world at a much younger age than some child of a truck driver or convenience store employee.
The real world of Mark Zuckerberg's children is different than the real world of my daughter. That is obvious, but that doesn't prevent me from noticing how they can be the same. For example, if the Zuckerbergs children don't like a particular tutor, they find a new one. The tutor is now out of a job and maybe thinks the parents are doing wrong trying to please their children, but there is no reason the tutor can't mentally build a life that is pleasing. In other words, before the tutor even takes that job, he or she can have a way to determine beforehand if it will be a good fit. Being fired is a sign of a bad fit and a waste of everyone's time including the wealthy. But being able to turn down a potential client, even a very wealthy one is creating options, and having options is one of the purposes of being rich.
And so having options is one of the lessons I "teach" my daughter and the second one is realizing that others have options as well.
It all depends on how you define your American dream. My American dream was getting a college degree at a state school and paying for it myself, finding a decent job with a pension, buying a small home, having a car, having 3 kids, having grandkids and retiring modestly and comfortably. I achieved it. It didn't come easy. I spent 35 years taking the subway to and from work every day, lived 13 years in apartments until I could save a down payment for a house, drove junker used cars until I was in my late 40's, saw financial daylight in my mid 50's, and worked two additional years as an IT contractor after I retired, until I collected SS at 62. But I was my own man and enjoyed pretty much all of it.
I saw what it took to become a VP at my company and I wasn't interested in being on display 24x7, spending decades pleasing someone higher up on the ladder so I could get there too. I started at the company just a few years after someone who worked just two offices down from me, who eventually became the CEO. He never socialized with any of us, never went drinking with the guys, was always on task. All of those guys who became VP's or higher had a permanent stick up their butts. I can't think of a worse life, a prisoner in a gilded cage.
My son got a college degree at a city university, paid for it himself, taught high school English for one year and then went to work for the parks department as a field supervisor. After 6 years in the parks department he became a NYC fireman. In his early 40's he was retired with a disability pension for a shoulder injury sustained on the job. He's in his mid 40's and has 3 kids and has been running his own home renovation business for several years now, renovating Brooklyn brownstones. He loves what he does, has several employees and works 6 days a week by choice. He also takes off camping or traveling to the west coast or other locations whenever he feels like it. He just returned from a couple of weeks of visiting friends in Portugal. He achieved his American dream.
My grandson now attends junior college, is studying art, and works to pay for it himself. I have no doubt all my grandkids will all find their American dream as well. I think the American dream is always going to be alive, depending on what your version of the dream is, and how hard and how long you are willing to work for it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sand&Salt
No. I do not believe that trope.
The adversity I've experienced has beaten me down, made me cynical and not trusting in any institution, company or gov't, not to mention dishonest people as individuals.
The more dominant and the richer, beat down the less dominant and poorer. Justice is nearly impossible to come by unless you are wealthy with great lawyers.
Sonic Spork put it much more eloquently. The "American Dream" is long dead (with the usual few exceptions)
It all depends on how you define your American dream. My American dream was getting a college degree at a state school and paying for it myself, finding a decent job with a pension, buying a small home, having a car, having 3 kids, having grandkids and retiring modestly and comfortably. I achieved it. It didn't come easy. I spent 35 years taking the subway to and from work every day, lived 13 years in apartments until I could save a down payment for a house, drove junker used cars until I was in my late 40's, saw financial daylight in my mid 50's, and worked two additional years as an IT contractor after I retired until I collected SS at 62. But I was my own man and enjoyed pretty much all of it.
I saw what it took to become a VP at my company and I wasn't interested in being on display 24x7, spending decades pleasing someone higher up on the ladder so you could get there too. I started at the company just a few years after someone who worked just two offices down from me, who eventually became the CEO. He never socialized with any of us. never went drinking with the guys, was always on task. All of those guys who became VP's or higher had a permanent stick up their butts. I can't think of a worse life, a prisoner in a gilded cage.
My son got a college degree at a city university, paid for it himself, taught for one year and went to work for the parks department. After 6 years he became a NYC fireman. In his early 40's he was retired with a disability pension for a shoulder injury sustained on the job. He's in his mid 40's and has 3 kids and has been running his own home renovation business for several years now, renovating brownstones. He loves what he does, has several employees and works 6 days a week by choice. He also takes off camping or traveling to the west coast or other locations whenever he feels like it. He just returned from a couple of weeks of visiting friends in Portugal. He achieved his American dream.
My grandson now attends junior college, is studying art, and works to pay for it himself. I have no doubt my grandkids will all find their American dream as well. I think the American dream is always going to be alive, depending on what your dream is.
And the reason it worked, for you, your kids, your grandkids, and for that matter, for ME even...
A person who has enough fortitude can push themselves through a certain amount of adversity, IF they believe in something good waiting on the other side of it.
At what point did any of the listed people above, think to themselves,
"I have worked so hard and yet I'm hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt. I will never be able to dig out of this. Every raise I get is devoured by costs for things I need."
or
"I saved, invested, did everything right. And I got cancer and now all of my savings is gone, my house had to be mortgaged, and I have nothing to leave to my children because my medical expenses ate everything I had and then some."
or basically any situation where you cannot see a tomorrow that looks any better than today, and today SUCKS.
Part of the reason that I frame it this way, is that my first marriage was so challenging. I wasn't happy with him, I guess I shoulda/coulda left him a lot sooner, but I wanted to do what I believed was the right thing. I felt that if I worked hard enough, our finances would be good enough so that we'd both be fine and my children would not experience deep poverty (as I lived through with my Mom after her divorce from my father.) I thought that if I just worked hard enough I could make everyone believe that everything was fine even if I knew better. And eventually, once everything was better, once we'd worked and made good choices, once he was out of the military, once we had a nice home in a nice place and all of the factors fell into place from all those years of pushing forward and trying to brute force our way to success.... Then my husband would see, he'd see that happiness is possible, that it all pays off. He'd see that I could make our lives good. He'd see that it has value. He'd stop acting like everything had to be miserable and he'd stop having a bad attitude, once I "boot-strap"ed our way to the top.
And then we arrived.
The debt was paid off. The house was big and beautiful and in a nice neighborhood. The kids were in good schools. He had friends nearby to spend time with. He was out of the military and between his disability and my job, he no longer had to work. Yay! Now we can all relax and be happy, right? We made it!
Wrong.
Instead, he lost his mind and started torturing the rest of us.
And it was then, and ONLY then, that I had to cut my sunk costs in that situation because the payoff I'd worked 18 years for was never coming. Up to that point, I believed in it. Looking back, you would be shocked if I described some of the things I suffered through, just because I thought that there was a goal to be reached. But it was seeing that the goal was a lie that was never going to be real no matter what I did, that made me give up on that marriage.
In a way, I think that a lot of people feel that way about LIFE now. Worryingly, a lot of young people. This should be ringing alarm bells, because...like if I did not believe in a future, at 18, I would have never let that relationship get off the ground or done any of that work....if the kids don't believe that they will EVER be able to afford to buy a home, be debt free, raise kids of their own, retire...have just basic security... What is motivating them to even TRY? It is understandable that a 20 year old should have to push through and overcome some dodgy times to get to a better place, but if you take away the carrot, what in the hell is the point? If all they see ahead is stick and more stick, forever?
People need hope. I think it makes all the difference between adversity that creates resilience, and adversity that crushes you into the dirt.
Well a person can look at the glass as half full or half empty.
I experienced poverty and divorce as a child, my Mom was married and divorced three times by the time I was in high school. I lived in the NYC projects and rentals in NYC, Detroit, LA, SF, Seattle, with my Mom and her husbands. I was hungry at times. I had no contacts or money. I have had serious illnesses. But maybe I was lucky because I considered all of it good. I just did the best I could every day and was happy with what I had. I worked to survive, and my reward was an education, good times, steady work, food and shelter, a wife, kids and a dog. My wife and I were on the same page, never worried about money or the lack of it, made do with what we had. I took care of the finances, she took care of the home and kids. We accepted each other's faults and never tried to change each other.
But I did plan ahead. I did get a college diploma so I could apply for better jobs. When I couldn't get a decent job in LA, I relocated to NYC where the jobs were. I only took jobs with a pension, regardless of how much more money others were making in jobs without a pension. I figured if I lived to retirement I would want a pension. I only worked for three companies in 37 years, and only moved on when the pay was better. I always paid for the best medical insurance so that when I was hit with catastrophic illness and enormous medical bills in retirement I wasn't affected financially. I and my kids and now my grandson commuted to public colleges from home and paid our own way with work and minimal loans while in school, to get a diploma as cheaply as possible. I used debt but never worried about it and paid all of it off by the time I retired.
I don't see that any of these opportunities have disappeared. I never could afford to quit or let anyone take advantage of me for long. All my decisions were based on what I thought was best and not what others thought. I chose to live in the present in reality, not fantasy. I only got a handful of lucky breaks, but my decisions led me there, and I took advantage of them. As my mother once told me, I got everything in life I wanted, because I never wanted much.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic_Spork
And the reason it worked, for you, your kids, your grandkids, and for that matter, for ME even...
A person who has enough fortitude can push themselves through a certain amount of adversity, IF they believe in something good waiting on the other side of it.
At what point did any of the listed people above, think to themselves,
"I have worked so hard and yet I'm hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt. I will never be able to dig out of this. Every raise I get is devoured by costs for things I need."
or
"I saved, invested, did everything right. And I got cancer and now all of my savings is gone, my house had to be mortgaged, and I have nothing to leave to my children because my medical expenses ate everything I had and then some."
or basically any situation where you cannot see a tomorrow that looks any better than today, and today SUCKS.
Part of the reason that I frame it this way, is that my first marriage was so challenging. I wasn't happy with him, I guess I shoulda/coulda left him a lot sooner, but I wanted to do what I believed was the right thing. I felt that if I worked hard enough, our finances would be good enough so that we'd both be fine and my children would not experience deep poverty (as I lived through with my Mom after her divorce from my father.) I thought that if I just worked hard enough I could make everyone believe that everything was fine even if I knew better. And eventually, once everything was better, once we'd worked and made good choices, once he was out of the military, once we had a nice home in a nice place and all of the factors fell into place from all those years of pushing forward and trying to brute force our way to success.... Then my husband would see, he'd see that happiness is possible, that it all pays off. He'd see that I could make our lives good. He'd see that it has value. He'd stop acting like everything had to be miserable and he'd stop having a bad attitude, once I "boot-strap"ed our way to the top.
And then we arrived.
The debt was paid off. The house was big and beautiful and in a nice neighborhood. The kids were in good schools. He had friends nearby to spend time with. He was out of the military and between his disability and my job, he no longer had to work. Yay! Now we can all relax and be happy, right? We made it!
Wrong.
Instead, he lost his mind and started torturing the rest of us.
And it was then, and ONLY then, that I had to cut my sunk costs in that situation because the payoff I'd worked 18 years for was never coming. Up to that point, I believed in it. Looking back, you would be shocked if I described some of the things I suffered through, just because I thought that there was a goal to be reached. But it was seeing that the goal was a lie that was never going to be real no matter what I did, that made me give up on that marriage.
In a way, I think that a lot of people feel that way about LIFE now. Worryingly, a lot of young people. This should be ringing alarm bells, because...like if I did not believe in a future, at 18, I would have never let that relationship get off the ground or done any of that work....if the kids don't believe that they will EVER be able to afford to buy a home, be debt free, raise kids of their own, retire...have just basic security... What is motivating them to even TRY? It is understandable that a 20 year old should have to push through and overcome some dodgy times to get to a better place, but if you take away the carrot, what in the hell is the point? If all they see ahead is stick and more stick, forever?
People need hope. I think it makes all the difference between adversity that creates resilience, and adversity that crushes you into the dirt.
I recently listened to the Maintenance Phase podcast episodes about Rachel Hollis, who I wasn't really familiar with, but apparently she appealed to soccer moms with a "no excuses, just get up early and you'll be successful, yadda yadda" self-help schtick. But in actuality it turned out that she was married to a high-powered Disney exec and used his money and connections to start her own business and social media empire. It's really easy to tell people to pull themselves up by their bootstraps when you can pay someone to tie your shoes for you.
I recently listened to the Maintenance Phase podcast episodes about Rachel Hollis, who I wasn't really familiar with, but apparently she appealed to soccer moms with a "no excuses, just get up early and you'll be successful, yadda yadda" self-help schtick. But in actuality it turned out that she was married to a high-powered Disney exec and used his money and connections to start her own business and social media empire. It's really easy to tell people to pull themselves up by their bootstraps when you can pay someone to tie your shoes for you.
This is why I don't really pay attention to people who have no immediate impact on my life. Sure it is nice to see how wealthy people are living, but unless they walk you step-by-step through their lives for at least a year, what happens behind closed doors, stays behind closed doors.
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