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I don't think abusers rationally seek out their victims though. I mean some of them probably do, but there's a certain hmm dynamic that is created when someone is abusive and the other person doesn't know how to deal with that.
In essence people are just different and it's critical to be able to defend yourself against others who don't have YOUR best interests in mind. If someone is so egotistical that they never take your feelings into account and they overstep your boundaries constantly, you either need to get out, or address the issue. If you can't address it, it probably means you are in a circle that should break. Relationships and friendships are about being able to express yourself.
But I guess it's all nice and easy when someone is not in that abusive relationship. But still, even if someone is, there are ways out and other people can and will help. But first and foremost, you must be able to help yourself. By opening up and talking about it, be it with your friends, your family, with the person that is starting to get abusive IF that is safe or possible, with a therapist, or in the worst case maybe even the police.
Helping is a tricky thing because sometimes if you bring it up they get more mad at you then their abuser which is weird.
I wasn’t bringing it up in a condescending or preachy was it was more of just concern and let the person know im their for them.
She and others others I’ve dealt with treat abuse so cavalier as if it’s not a big deal.
Meanwhile myself and other guys I know look at male abusers as scum and it angers us to know end to see this happen to people we love.
To me men abusing women is one of the worst things you can do outside of molesting kids and rape
At the time it almost made me think do Men look at domestic abuse as something way worse then women do?
I was abused by my Mother as I grew up...This was the late 50's-60's. There were no counseling programs and no real way to deal with this. It was physical abuse....whippings.
Later as I was nearing middle 30's....I went to counseling for my son...and the counselor asked me to continue with counseling....Because I was very emotional during sessions. He was right, my husband was verbally abusing me...and had been for years. Of course in my day...abuse was supposed to be physical...So, I honestly hadn't even identified myself yet as abused. And my SO thought that I was nuts....That I wasn't being abused because he hadn't knocked the crap out of me.
During the many following sessions I learned many things...and was helped greatly by this man. One of the most important lessons that I learned is that physical abuse is often easier that emotional abuse....you can show someone your bruises....Not so with the emotional abuse. But the internal feelings that you have, are the same....Not good enough, why would someone you love hurt you...You must deserve it....bla, bla.
My counselor also explained, that my Mom had set me up to be an abused wife, because she raised me all the time abusing me.
So, to answer your question, I strongly believe that there is a correlation between having been abused as a child, and accepting abuse from your SO as an adult.
Once you can get good help...supportive help and a chance to understand what abuse is...You'll often never go back to that sort of relationship again. That's why IMO counseling is critical. I know that it saved my life.
Another part of the mental situation for both abusers and the abused, is that most of the time they have BOTH experienced abuse of some kind in the past that shaped them into what they became, and usually it was "worse" usually in a sense that either it was physical and the present day abuse is more emotional/verbal, or else the remembered physical abuse from the past was much more severe. What that means is that both of them are seeing the situation as "not as bad" as what THEY were put through and therefore...excusable more or less. The abuser thinks, "you think this is bad, my father beat me with a belt." The victim thinks, "well it could be worse...and if I leave, I might find out how much worse with the next guy..."
Neither are seeing it through the basic lens of "this just should not be happening. It's not OK."
And I know that in my case, my ex was not some kind of malicious, calculating villain. His behavior wasn't something he planned out. It wasn't some kind of clever scheme. Not even some of the manipulation, it was just very in-the-moment. It was clear to me that HE was mentally unhealthy, and there was always this feeling that if I could just make his life easier and better, he'd be his kinder and happier self...if only I could make him understand what his actions and words looked like from the outside, he would stop behaving that way. You end up constantly playing at armchair psychologist to this damaged individual and you don't even realize that your entire life (and that of your family if you have kids, as I did) is revolving around their moods in a way that just sucks all the air out of the room. There is no space left for the needs or feelings of anyone else. Everything had to be ALL about him at ALL times. If I was sick, he was sicker. If I was stressed, he'd act out until I stopped focusing on whatever other thing was on my mind, and focused on him.
He would demand that if I wanted his help with anything, I ask him for it, but if I did ask him for it, I did not ask early enough to give him time to plan it all out (even if he had literally nothing else going on) or I asked at the wrong moment when he was mentally occupied with something else or I used the wrong tone or... Everything was a fight and every fight was my fault.
Quote:
Originally Posted by VinMay
Gotcha.
I’m not trying to be insensitive too the person who’s getting abuseds plight at all here so please don’t take it as that but my cousin was in her late 30’s when this happened. Maybe I’m being totally ignorant but at some point even with abusive upbringings at a certain age doesn’t certain stuff just kinda click with life experiences in terms of what’s normal and what’s not or is that stuff impossible to break without some sort of extensive therapy?
It completely depends on the person. It does not always play out the same, and different people have different levels of intelligence, insight, friends or family they can talk to.... There are different resources or lack thereof that go into every situation.
I did not need therapy, though I probably could use it and I did use other tools such as journaling and discussion groups and a ton of processing with trusted friends I bonded with after we split. But part of it for me was the last bit of my above reply to the other quote, because everything was always such a hassle if my ex was involved, I started making my plans AROUND him, not involving him. I would cut him out of things whenever I could because it wasn't worth getting yelled at and stressed out. This gave me a feeling of independence because I was handling a lot on my own. He was not in administrative control of our finances, so he could not keep my own earned money away from me (some abusers do.)
After I left, because I had been with him for 18 years, I was not totally confident about my own decisions and I was worried about ending up with another abuser, so while I did date, it wasn't with the intention of forming another serious relationship. In fact it was more about building a network of support and friendship around myself. I moved into a little apartment and declared myself "solo poly" meaning that I intended to live on my own and carry on multiple relationships that were specifically NOT meant to lead to cohabiting or marrying. I wanted people...but I wanted them to stay out of my home life. I did not yet trust myself to make a good choice on a new standard kind of monogamous relationship yet.
But I got REALLY lucky. Super lucky. Because this married couple I dated (still close friends)... The wife is a massage therapist who is just this soothing, happy soul. The husband is this super chill guy who loves to take care of people, one of these "brews craft beer at home, plays acoustic guitar and cooks fancy food" kind of dudes who isn't that uncommon to the mountain towns in Colorado honestly. (Successful IT guy so not as hippie as it might sound, but...yeah.) What I'm getting at by describing them is that I had people who showed me that I deserved to have good, beautiful people in my life. They were loving, supportive, and just... They helped me heal. Probably more than therapy would have done. Being around them is like being at a luxury resort spa.
Do most people have access to that? God, no. I was lucky. Right place, right time, and willing to be involved with really unconventional practices.
I did eventually remarry, but it was over a year from breaking up with my ex when he and I became exclusive, about a year+ after becoming exclusive before we moved in together, and over 2 years after moving in together when we got married. I was not expecting to ever marry again, so I needed to take my time and be really, really sure. But I had the luxury of being able to do that. This man did not rush me, neither of us were trying to have children, and I was financially secure enough not to NEED a partner just to help me survive. How many single Moms or even single people can say that? Damn sure not all, maybe not even most.
They say you need to take some time, and most mean time with NO dating all by yourself, after a breakup in order to break cycles of abuse and recalibrate your "broken picker." But for a lot of survivors this will mean, what, being all alone with no emotional support? Especially if their abuser damaged the relationship they previously had with others? And possibly being in a rocky spot financially on their own? I mean...I'd like anyone who is in a relationship to think about their household finances for a second, and ask yourself, can YOU afford, on your household income, to go rent or buy a second home right now?
And it's not like they can go fall back on, say, their parents...if their parents were even more abusive than their partner!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gohangr
I don't think abusers rationally seek out their victims though. I mean some of them probably do, but there's a certain hmm dynamic that is created when someone is abusive and the other person doesn't know how to deal with that.
In essence people are just different and it's critical to be able to defend yourself against others who don't have YOUR best interests in mind. If someone is so egotistical that they never take your feelings into account and they overstep your boundaries constantly, you either need to get out, or address the issue. If you can't address it, it probably means you are in a circle that should break. Relationships and friendships are about being able to express yourself.
But I guess it's all nice and easy when someone is not in that abusive relationship. But still, even if someone is, there are ways out and other people can and will help. But first and foremost, you must be able to help yourself. By opening up and talking about it, be it with your friends, your family, with the person that is starting to get abusive IF that is safe or possible, with a therapist, or in the worst case maybe even the police.
I explained that no, they don't "rationally seek out" victims. It's just that the behavior of an abuser, just who they are and how they act, will sometimes raise red flags for some people and not for others.
Those who put up with small boundary testing behaviors early on, are the ones that the abuser will continue to interact with. Naturally. It isn't that they plot and scheme to do this, it's just how they are. And they don't believe that there's anything wrong about what they are doing, most of the time.
I have talked to a man from these forums who did something brutally abusive to his wife ages ago and admitted this to me with tones of mild regret in a message, yet STILL paints HIMSELF as the victim of unfair conditions in his marriage, in thread after thread. These guys see their own actions as just...the natural consequences of a man who is pushed too far, past a breaking point that would incite bad behavior from ANYONE. They are all up in their own feelings and they cannot see how their words and actions are affecting others. That's another thing, too...there are people who don't really believe that one has an ability and/or responsibility to control their words and actions if strong feelings are driving them. This feeds the rationale of the abusive mind.
And frankly this whole thing of women having a right to not be abused is NEW in American culture. A lot of abuse used to be considered reasonable and normal. They are trying to bring back paddling in that one school in Missouri, right? A man used to have to keep his wife in line because a wife was not considered to be a full adult like a man. She needed guidance from her husband lest she wander astray morally or something. What a man did in his own home was his own business. If a woman dresses in a way that gives men FEELINGS then she may be deserving of "whatever happens to her"...as if it's a force of nature, like a man having no impulse control is as natural and expected as rain on a cloudy day.
I mean, even threads like this, which crop up from time to time, focus on "what's wrong with the victim?" As in, we can understand that some people will be monstrous and abusive, no way to stop that, it's just natural...but what victim of abuse would tolerate this? So it should be on them to make it stop...and if they don't or can't then... What? They...deserve it?
Oh no, no, nobody is saying that... OK but kinda, it's there, underneath all of this deep psychoanalyzing of the choices of the victim and not the abuser, though. Just so you know, that message always lurks just under the surface.
Also, another thing that kept me IN my abusive relationship so long is that society (and these forums at times) is chock full of scoldy messages about people, especially women, being frivolous and selfish and irresponsible, the divorce rate, how women just want to betray and abandon men and take all their money and we're terrible people. To the point that if faced with this, my first impulse is to start explaining ALL THE CRAP I put up with for what was at the time half of my adult life, just to try and keep my family together and my kids being raised by their Dad, and how I took a financial beating in our divorce because any price was fair to pay just to get out and away in peace. Should I have had to endure hell, just to prove I'm not some flighty selfish princess, skipping off to chase strange D? I don't think so.
But I can tell you right now, if he had a profile here and were telling the story, that's exactly how he'd describe me. And plenty of people (men and women both) would nod their heads and sympathize with him.
Helping is a tricky thing because sometimes if you bring it up they get more mad at you then their abuser which is weird.
I wasn’t bringing it up in a condescending or preachy was it was more of just concern and let the person know im their for them.
She and others others I’ve dealt with treat abuse so cavalier as if it’s not a big deal.
Meanwhile myself and other guys I know look at male abusers as scum and it angers us to know end to see this happen to people we love.
To me men abusing women is one of the worst things you can do outside of molesting kids and rape
At the time it almost made me think do Men look at domestic abuse as something way worse then women do?
Maybe they're embarassed, so they downplay the abuse. Maybe they're ashamed of themselves, for tolerating the abuse.
I was molested off and on when I was between 6 and 8 years old, by a next door neighbor...the husband of my mom's best friend.
I knew what he was doing was bad, but part of me thought it was my fault, because at first, when he started paying attention to me, it made me feel special. And as the firstborn of 5 stair-step kids...I craved feeling special. So, me wanting attention is what caused the molestation. And then I started thinking if I tell anyone, my dad is going to beat him up, and THAT will be my fault, and my dad might go to jail, and THAT will be my fault...
Maybe they're embarassed, so they downplay the abuse. Maybe they're ashamed of themselves, for tolerating the abuse.
I was molested off and on when I was between 6 and 8 years old, by a next door neighbor...the husband of my mom's best friend.
I knew what he was doing was bad, but part of me thought it was my fault, because at first, when he started paying attention to me, it made me feel special. And as the firstborn of 5 stair-step kids...I craved feeling special. So, me wanting attention is what caused the molestation. And then I started thinking if I tell anyone, my dad is going to beat him up, and THAT will be my fault, and my dad might go to jail, and THAT will be my fault...
So sorry you had to go through that.
Most women I know who went through domestic abuse also were molested and I’m sure psychologically that plays a huge part in accepting abuse as a adult.
Maybe they're embarassed, so they downplay the abuse. Maybe they're ashamed of themselves, for tolerating the abuse.
I was molested off and on when I was between 6 and 8 years old, by a next door neighbor...the husband of my mom's best friend.
I knew what he was doing was bad, but part of me thought it was my fault, because at first, when he started paying attention to me, it made me feel special. And as the firstborn of 5 stair-step kids...I craved feeling special. So, me wanting attention is what caused the molestation. And then I started thinking if I tell anyone, my dad is going to beat him up, and THAT will be my fault, and my dad might go to jail, and THAT will be my fault...
I don't know that I was embarrassed or ashamed, but I did hear so much crap talk about "victim mentality" that it made me angrily determined to never think of myself or present myself as a victim of anyone or anything.
I was 100% clear about the fact that every day that I stayed, it was my choice to do so, during the time that I was doing it. I weighed the alternatives that appeared to be before me and staying seemed like the right choice in each moment...until it didn't. What I did not realize all along the way, was how bad it would have to get in order to tip those scales.
But I had no use (still don't) for anyone looking upon me with pity or needing an excuse for any of my own failings or difficulties. I don't beat myself up about it of course, I can forgive myself for having been 18 and not understanding what I was getting into or where it would lead. But I feel like there is this idea that if one is a victim, one is this pathetic, helpless, cringing, weepy wreck who CAN'T live a good life or something, and to that I give a big middle finger. Survivors are often incredibly strong people.
And perhaps, too, I am wary of anyone who engages with someone who is in a weakened state seemingly with some intention of saving them. Some of the abusers I've known, including my ex, cast themselves as heroes out to rescue a damsel in distress, when in fact they are just seeking vulnerability to exploit in order to gain control over someone. Some survivors, perhaps myself, learn not to show their pain or weakness to others because we know what kind of people will engage with it, we learned the hard way. So we can talk about our situations or our past, but we do not readily share our feelings about it, and what is read as being cavalier might more accurately be described as stoic.
And finally, again, let's be real about how abuse survivors are often perceived. Which is with a serious lack of respect and a lot of focus on what is wrong with us, rather than what is wrong with our abusers. I didn't want my employer to know at the time what I was dealing with. Airing that dirty laundry would only have made me look bad. Unstable, unreliable perhaps.
I don't know that I was embarrassed or ashamed, but I did hear so much crap talk about "victim mentality" that it made me angrily determined to never think of myself or present myself as a victim of anyone or anything.
I was 100% clear about the fact that every day that I stayed, it was my choice to do so, during the time that I was doing it. I weighed the alternatives that appeared to be before me and staying seemed like the right choice in each moment...until it didn't. What I did not realize all along the way, was how bad it would have to get in order to tip those scales.
But I had no use (still don't) for anyone looking upon me with pity or needing an excuse for any of my own failings or difficulties. I don't beat myself up about it of course, I can forgive myself for having been 18 and not understanding what I was getting into or where it would lead. But I feel like there is this idea that if one is a victim, one is this pathetic, helpless, cringing, weepy wreck who CAN'T live a good life or something, and to that I give a big middle finger. Survivors are often incredibly strong people.
And perhaps, too, I am wary of anyone who engages with someone who is in a weakened state seemingly with some intention of saving them. Some of the abusers I've known, including my ex, cast themselves as heroes out to rescue a damsel in distress, when in fact they are just seeking vulnerability to exploit in order to gain control over someone. Some survivors, perhaps myself, learn not to show their pain or weakness to others because we know what kind of people will engage with it, we learned the hard way. So we can talk about our situations or our past, but we do not readily share our feelings about it, and what is read as being cavalier might more accurately be described as stoic.
And finally, again, let's be real about how abuse survivors are often perceived. Which is with a serious lack of respect and a lot of focus on what is wrong with us, rather than what is wrong with our abusers. I didn't want my employer to know at the time what I was dealing with. Airing that dirty laundry would only have made me look bad. Unstable, unreliable perhaps.
I think you pretty much nailed it. This conversation could end right here, because I don't think anyone could explain it any clearer.
Most women I know who went through domestic abuse also were molested and I’m sure psychologically that plays a huge part in accepting abuse as a adult.
Not for me. I was abused by my father from age of 9 until I was 15 and I said no more. He went to prison and I spent 15 years trying to undo the damage and rebuilding my life. I thereafter never accepted abuse in any of my relationships with men or friends. I will say that my need for my mothers blinded me and I was trapped in my denial for many years that in fact I was trapped in a toxic cycle with her and my sister.
To whoever sent a message have the courage to at least try and lecture me on abuse publicly. I am fully aware of the variety of dynamics having been a victim, and having worked in the mental health field working with victims of abuse.
Not every victim of abuse gravitates towards abusers, or finds life so boring they choose an abuser to beat the living daylights of them
It feels easy and natural to them. Normal relations feel like a struggle; just like civilian life feels weird to a soldier who has seen action. ALSO Abusers will make it easy to form a relationship with them while normal people will have boundaries. Boundaries feel like rejection to an abused person; so they feel that abusers are all that they deserve since normal people "push them away".
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