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Another part of the mental situation for both abusers and the abused, is that most of the time they have BOTH experienced abuse of some kind in the past that shaped them into what they became, and usually it was "worse" usually in a sense that either it was physical and the present day abuse is more emotional/verbal, or else the remembered physical abuse from the past was much more severe. What that means is that both of them are seeing the situation as "not as bad" as what THEY were put through and therefore...excusable more or less. The abuser thinks, "you think this is bad, my father beat me with a belt." The victim thinks, "well it could be worse...and if I leave, I might find out how much worse with the next guy..."
Neither are seeing it through the basic lens of "this just should not be happening. It's not OK."
And I know that in my case, my ex was not some kind of malicious, calculating villain. His behavior wasn't something he planned out. It wasn't some kind of clever scheme. Not even some of the manipulation, it was just very in-the-moment. It was clear to me that HE was mentally unhealthy, and there was always this feeling that if I could just make his life easier and better, he'd be his kinder and happier self...if only I could make him understand what his actions and words looked like from the outside, he would stop behaving that way. You end up constantly playing at armchair psychologist to this damaged individual and you don't even realize that your entire life (and that of your family if you have kids, as I did) is revolving around their moods in a way that just sucks all the air out of the room. There is no space left for the needs or feelings of anyone else. Everything had to be ALL about him at ALL times. If I was sick, he was sicker. If I was stressed, he'd act out until I stopped focusing on whatever other thing was on my mind, and focused on him.
He would demand that if I wanted his help with anything, I ask him for it, but if I did ask him for it, I did not ask early enough to give him time to plan it all out (even if he had literally nothing else going on) or I asked at the wrong moment when he was mentally occupied with something else or I used the wrong tone or... Everything was a fight and every fight was my fault.
It completely depends on the person. It does not always play out the same, and different people have different levels of intelligence, insight, friends or family they can talk to.... There are different resources or lack thereof that go into every situation.
I did not need therapy, though I probably could use it and I did use other tools such as journaling and discussion groups and a ton of processing with trusted friends I bonded with after we split. But part of it for me was the last bit of my above reply to the other quote, because everything was always such a hassle if my ex was involved, I started making my plans AROUND him, not involving him. I would cut him out of things whenever I could because it wasn't worth getting yelled at and stressed out. This gave me a feeling of independence because I was handling a lot on my own. He was not in administrative control of our finances, so he could not keep my own earned money away from me (some abusers do.)
After I left, because I had been with him for 18 years, I was not totally confident about my own decisions and I was worried about ending up with another abuser, so while I did date, it wasn't with the intention of forming another serious relationship. In fact it was more about building a network of support and friendship around myself. I moved into a little apartment and declared myself "solo poly" meaning that I intended to live on my own and carry on multiple relationships that were specifically NOT meant to lead to cohabiting or marrying. I wanted people...but I wanted them to stay out of my home life. I did not yet trust myself to make a good choice on a new standard kind of monogamous relationship yet.
But I got REALLY lucky. Super lucky. Because this married couple I dated (still close friends)... The wife is a massage therapist who is just this soothing, happy soul. The husband is this super chill guy who loves to take care of people, one of these "brews craft beer at home, plays acoustic guitar and cooks fancy food" kind of dudes who isn't that uncommon to the mountain towns in Colorado honestly. (Successful IT guy so not as hippie as it might sound, but...yeah.) What I'm getting at by describing them is that I had people who showed me that I deserved to have good, beautiful people in my life. They were loving, supportive, and just... They helped me heal. Probably more than therapy would have done. Being around them is like being at a luxury resort spa.
Do most people have access to that? God, no. I was lucky. Right place, right time, and willing to be involved with really unconventional practices.
I did eventually remarry, but it was over a year from breaking up with my ex when he and I became exclusive, about a year+ after becoming exclusive before we moved in together, and over 2 years after moving in together when we got married. I was not expecting to ever marry again, so I needed to take my time and be really, really sure. But I had the luxury of being able to do that. This man did not rush me, neither of us were trying to have children, and I was financially secure enough not to NEED a partner just to help me survive. How many single Moms or even single people can say that? Damn sure not all, maybe not even most.
They say you need to take some time, and most mean time with NO dating all by yourself, after a breakup in order to break cycles of abuse and recalibrate your "broken picker." But for a lot of survivors this will mean, what, being all alone with no emotional support? Especially if their abuser damaged the relationship they previously had with others? And possibly being in a rocky spot financially on their own? I mean...I'd like anyone who is in a relationship to think about their household finances for a second, and ask yourself, can YOU afford, on your household income, to go rent or buy a second home right now?
And it's not like they can go fall back on, say, their parents...if their parents were even more abusive than their partner!
I explained that no, they don't "rationally seek out" victims. It's just that the behavior of an abuser, just who they are and how they act, will sometimes raise red flags for some people and not for others.
Those who put up with small boundary testing behaviors early on, are the ones that the abuser will continue to interact with. Naturally. It isn't that they plot and scheme to do this, it's just how they are. And they don't believe that there's anything wrong about what they are doing, most of the time.
I have talked to a man from these forums who did something brutally abusive to his wife ages ago and admitted this to me with tones of mild regret in a message, yet STILL paints HIMSELF as the victim of unfair conditions in his marriage, in thread after thread. These guys see their own actions as just...the natural consequences of a man who is pushed too far, past a breaking point that would incite bad behavior from ANYONE. They are all up in their own feelings and they cannot see how their words and actions are affecting others. That's another thing, too...there are people who don't really believe that one has an ability and/or responsibility to control their words and actions if strong feelings are driving them. This feeds the rationale of the abusive mind.
And frankly this whole thing of women having a right to not be abused is NEW in American culture. A lot of abuse used to be considered reasonable and normal. They are trying to bring back paddling in that one school in Missouri, right? A man used to have to keep his wife in line because a wife was not considered to be a full adult like a man. She needed guidance from her husband lest she wander astray morally or something. What a man did in his own home was his own business. If a woman dresses in a way that gives men FEELINGS then she may be deserving of "whatever happens to her"...as if it's a force of nature, like a man having no impulse control is as natural and expected as rain on a cloudy day.
I mean, even threads like this, which crop up from time to time, focus on "what's wrong with the victim?" As in, we can understand that some people will be monstrous and abusive, no way to stop that, it's just natural...but what victim of abuse would tolerate this? So it should be on them to make it stop...and if they don't or can't then... What? They...deserve it?
Oh no, no, nobody is saying that... OK but kinda, it's there, underneath all of this deep psychoanalyzing of the choices of the victim and not the abuser, though. Just so you know, that message always lurks just under the surface.
Also, another thing that kept me IN my abusive relationship so long is that society (and these forums at times) is chock full of scoldy messages about people, especially women, being frivolous and selfish and irresponsible, the divorce rate, how women just want to betray and abandon men and take all their money and we're terrible people. To the point that if faced with this, my first impulse is to start explaining ALL THE CRAP I put up with for what was at the time half of my adult life, just to try and keep my family together and my kids being raised by their Dad, and how I took a financial beating in our divorce because any price was fair to pay just to get out and away in peace. Should I have had to endure hell, just to prove I'm not some flighty selfish princess, skipping off to chase strange D? I don't think so.
But I can tell you right now, if he had a profile here and were telling the story, that's exactly how he'd describe me. And plenty of people (men and women both) would nod their heads and sympathize with him.
I was gonna mention what you put more eloquently because I didn’t want it to come off wrong
Because women were thought of as less then and second class citizens for so long women some consciously some subconsciously still look at the man as the authoritarian/disciplinary figure in a relationship and maybe subconsciously why some look at it as not that big a deal.
I think there's a small percentage of abusers who are also sociopathic predators and do consciously seek out people they can victimize. But in the vast majority of cases it's more subtle than that. When they're interacting with women, they're going to find things like assertiveness a turn-off - what a ball-buster! She has a close relationship with her dad and mom? Who wants to deal with meddling in-laws? She has a great job? Look, the way I was raised, it's the man who's supposed to be the breadwinner. She has a circle of good girlfriends? Ugh, when a bunch of women get together it sounds like a flock of hens clucking. She's physically strong? Gross, she looks like a man.
Whereas someone who lets him push her boundaries, even if she seems uncomfortable about it? Wow, that's hot, she's demure but she wants to please me. Someone who is always trying to keep him happy? What a sweet girl. Someone who doesn't have a lot of friends or family looking out for her? Hey, it's nice to be needed, right? We'll have each other, and that's enough. She's struggling financially or with other aspects of her life? I can be her white knight! She's petite or otherwise physically delicate? I like a woman who makes me feel big and strong next to her.
Now, I'm obviously not saying every man who has these ideas or preferences about women is an abuser or will behave abusively, or that being lonely and broke makes a woman a sadsack doormat or whatever. Certainly lots of normal men prefer petite women or find shyness endearing. Certainly it's normal to try to make your significant other happy. Certainly we all have our struggles that a significant other could help us out with. But I am saying that abusers tend to have a critical mass of these preferences because they cannot see themselves in a relationship with someone they can't dominate. A woman who has lots of attributes that make her obviously independent or hard to cow will be unattractive to this kind of a person, whereas to this kind of person, a woman whose traits and situation make her appear more dependent and easier to cow will feel like girlfriend material.
Here's the thing: if you have supportive friends and family and access to therapy and all that, you're much less likely to end up locked into an abusive situation in the first place. Like, I know someone whose parents sided with the abusive husband when she left him, because in their family it isn't done to leave your spouse. Moreover, let's say you do have a place to go and people to help: one of the most statistically dangerous things a woman can do is leave an abusive significant other. The "if I can't have you, no one can" thing is very real, and law enforcement generally isn't super helpful. People aren't wrong to be scared to leave. Now, I'm not saying that that should make them stay, but I am saying that their best bet is to leave with a good plan in place, but often they don't have the resources to put a good plan in place, so then what are they do to? So it's not as easy as just "opening up."
This is spot on. Yes, there are some abusers who are just monsters. But in most cases we're talking about someone who does have lots of loveable traits, and is person you can have sympathy for, and often even has good intentions, but engages in behaviors that make them dangerous for the mental and/or physical well-being of those around them. Especially when the worst of those behaviors only occur sporadically it can be easy to lie to yourself and think things like "well, all couples fight" or "every relationship has its ups and downs" or "I'm not so easy to get along with either" or whatever. Until you find yourself once again in a crisis situation. But then the crisis passes, and it's like "was it really as big a thing as I was making out of it..." Often it takes something really catastrophic to happen to force you to confront the reality of the relationship head-on.
I’m sorry but any man who abuses women is a monster I don’t care if it’s calculated or not. No excuses for that at all.
Maybe if someone did it once and as soon as they put hands on a women immediately regretted it but anyone who made a habit out of doing it is a garbage human being.
An abuser shouldn’t get brownie points for only abusing sporadically not daily or weekly. That’s not a positive.
I also get that some women who were abused normalize it as much as possible for their own mental sanity and self preservation when talking about this stuff
Most people I know who are drawn to abusive relationships were abused physically and/or sexually(usually both) as a child
Is it a matter of low self esteem where they don’t think they deserve better?
Or is it a normalcy thing where it’s all they know and they don’t even realize it’s a bad thing to be abused because it’s what they endured growing up.
I don't know if they're even aware of the dynamics. It sure tends to work that way though.
I’m sorry but any man who abuses women is a monster I don’t care if it’s calculated or not. No excuses for that at all.
Maybe if someone did it once and as soon as they put hands on a women immediately regretted it but anyone who made a habit out of doing it is a garbage human being.
An abuser shouldn’t get brownie points for only abusing sporadically not daily or weekly. That’s not a positive.
I also get that some women who were abused normalize it as much as possible for their own mental sanity and self preservation when talking about this stuff
That really was not the point of me saying that. And it's been one of the harder aspects of this to discuss. If I try to tell you that an abuser isn't necessarily some wily, scheming super villain, I'm not making excuses for him.
I'm trying to tell you that in fact he looks just like a normal guy.
You will never understand anything from the perspective of an abuse victim, if you insist on seeing abusers as these "duh obviously he's a monster" types with no possibly positive qualities. The point of understanding that, isn't to get you to like him or excuse him, it's to comprehend how these things happen.
Sometimes it's not even that we are "fooled" by him pretending to be a nice guy or a normal man.
More often that not, he IS a "nice guy" and a normal man. Until the day he isn't. That day might come once every 6 months or once every 20 years. But people don't walk around with obvious labels, they don't 100% act and talk a specific way so that you'd know that this guy is abusive, they don't live pre-sorted into neat little bins. They don't slink around twirling their evil mustaches.
They are common. They are "normal." They look just like you, me and everybody else. Hell, sometimes they are even heroes. Mine went to war, let the Army break his body, to serve his country and support his family. He would have quite eagerly laid down his life to protect us. But then a few years later, he was threatening us with guns...because a man who, at times, was even a really good man...has mental health problems and sometimes he snaps. Not excusing it. Not saying he deserves forgiveness.
I want you to understand that it's not that abuse victims are idiots or wide eyed stupid baby deer in the headlights. With some of these people, anyone can be fooled because it isn't always even an act. People are not one-dimensional, and even abusers are complex.
Now some of them, like my ex, do go around saying and doing things that, while they are not exactly abusive, they are a bit shocking or boundary pushing. Like for instance, spouting off pushy alt-right political things at random cashiers in stores - I guess because he thinks he's making a joke that other people will laugh at? He doesn't seem to get that if they do, it's awkwardly because he sounds like a nut. Or maybe he wants to make them uncomfortable. People who act like internet trolls in real life, are what I'm talking about...they are testing the boundaries of EVERYONE AROUND THEM to see what other people will put up with, in a sense. I know another guy who gets super intense about girls early on and bombs them with long texts...in today's day and age, he's having no luck finding a partner. People know better.
Thing is, there are lots and lots of people who have posted around these forums over the years who would likely be, if not necessarily physical abusers, verbal/emotional abusers in a real relationship if they had one. They don't see it, and even if they were DOING it they probably wouldn't see it. Lots of mentally ill people don't even realize that they are mentally ill.
It isn't an excuse. There is no excuse for harming another person.
EDIT: Most who suffer from mental health issues are not abusers or harmful to others. When that's part of the picture, it is never an excuse but sometimes it is a reason.
But there are and always HAVE been a lot more abusive people out there than some people (especially men) think. Or want to believe. I could almost guarantee that in your life, you've been good friends with at least one if not several and never even knew it.
And while yes, it's true that women can be abusers also, and abuse can definitely happen in all sorts of relationships and gender configurations, and I have never said that it could not...
There are some pretty stark differences in terms of statistical commonality, severity, and a whole lot of other factors that are part of the picture. Such as certain professions where DV is more common and who make up most of the people working in them. Lots of stuff that's pretty well beside the point. But while I have all the sympathy for abused men, too, and feel that they must have the same access to support and should be believed... I won't readily accept the shutting down and derailment of a conversation with the deployment of an ever-handy, "but what about men?" So long as it's not deflection, we're good...
But anyhow, OP you questioned why women almost seem to normalize this and men consider it more horrifying and all... It's because you can't really get your head around the idea that no, actually, some dudes you know, some dudes all around you, normal seeming men who are not obvious "monsters" do in fact commit abusive acts in relationships, to women. Women experience abusive behavior with a degree of commonness that is uncomfortable for men to think about. And the world is not as simple as a lot of men I've known really want it to be...it's nuanced and complex. People aren't all cowboys riding around in black or white hats.
That really was not the point of me saying that. And it's been one of the harder aspects of this to discuss. If I try to tell you that an abuser isn't necessarily some wily, scheming super villain, I'm not making excuses for him.
I'm trying to tell you that in fact he looks just like a normal guy.
You will never understand anything from the perspective of an abuse victim, if you insist on seeing abusers as these "duh obviously he's a monster" types with no possibly positive qualities. The point of understanding that, isn't to get you to like him or excuse him, it's to comprehend how these things happen.
Sometimes it's not even that we are "fooled" by him pretending to be a nice guy or a normal man.
More often that not, he IS a "nice guy" and a normal man. Until the day he isn't. That day might come once every 6 months or once every 20 years. But people don't walk around with obvious labels, they don't 100% act and talk a specific way so that you'd know that this guy is abusive, they don't live pre-sorted into neat little bins. They don't slink around twirling their evil mustaches.
They are common. They are "normal." They look just like you, me and everybody else. Hell, sometimes they are even heroes. Mine went to war, let the Army break his body, to serve his country and support his family. He would have quite eagerly laid down his life to protect us. But then a few years later, he was threatening us with guns...because a man who, at times, was even a really good man...has mental health problems and sometimes he snaps. Not excusing it. Not saying he deserves forgiveness.
I want you to understand that it's not that abuse victims are idiots or wide eyed stupid baby deer in the headlights. With some of these people, anyone can be fooled because it isn't always even an act. People are not one-dimensional, and even abusers are complex.
Now some of them, like my ex, do go around saying and doing things that, while they are not exactly abusive, they are a bit shocking or boundary pushing. Like for instance, spouting off pushy alt-right political things at random cashiers in stores - I guess because he thinks he's making a joke that other people will laugh at? He doesn't seem to get that if they do, it's awkwardly because he sounds like a nut. Or maybe he wants to make them uncomfortable. People who act like internet trolls in real life, are what I'm talking about...they are testing the boundaries of EVERYONE AROUND THEM to see what other people will put up with, in a sense. I know another guy who gets super intense about girls early on and bombs them with long texts...in today's day and age, he's having no luck finding a partner. People know better.
Thing is, there are lots and lots of people who have posted around these forums over the years who would likely be, if not necessarily physical abusers, verbal/emotional abusers in a real relationship if they had one. They don't see it, and even if they were DOING it they probably wouldn't see it. Lots of mentally ill people don't even realize that they are mentally ill.
It isn't an excuse. There is no excuse for harming another person.
EDIT: Most who suffer from mental health issues are not abusers or harmful to others. When that's part of the picture, it is never an excuse but sometimes it is a reason.
But there are and always HAVE been a lot more abusive people out there than some people (especially men) think. Or want to believe. I could almost guarantee that in your life, you've been good friends with at least one if not several and never even knew it.
And while yes, it's true that women can be abusers also, and abuse can definitely happen in all sorts of relationships and gender configurations, and I have never said that it could not...
There are some pretty stark differences in terms of statistical commonality, severity, and a whole lot of other factors that are part of the picture. Such as certain professions where DV is more common and who make up most of the people working in them. Lots of stuff that's pretty well beside the point. But while I have all the sympathy for abused men, too, and feel that they must have the same access to support and should be believed... I won't readily accept the shutting down and derailment of a conversation with the deployment of an ever-handy, "but what about men?" So long as it's not deflection, we're good...
But anyhow, OP you questioned why women almost seem to normalize this and men consider it more horrifying and all... It's because you can't really get your head around the idea that no, actually, some dudes you know, some dudes all around you, normal seeming men who are not obvious "monsters" do in fact commit abusive acts in relationships, to women. Women experience abusive behavior with a degree of commonness that is uncomfortable for men to think about. And the world is not as simple as a lot of men I've known really want it to be...it's nuanced and complex. People aren't all cowboys riding around in black or white hats.
I was responding to frostnip saying that I don’t remember you saying it at all.
Anyway I get that it’s not always calculating and people are complex and not always good or always bad.
Regardless I stand by my statement.
Abusing women is up there with rape and child molesting as far as things I have no tolerance for and that automatically make you a scumbag in my eyes no matter what you do outside of those things.
I don’t think you have to beat women 24 hours a day to be a bad person and if you only beat your partner once in awhile that makes you a good person most of the time because you’re not always abusing them.
I’d also guess and I know for a fact knowing what some abused women went through that most physical abusers aren’t angels aside from the time they are physically abusive.
They are also most likely extremely controlling jealous emotionally abusive etc
That really was not the point of me saying that. And it's been one of the harder aspects of this to discuss. If I try to tell you that an abuser isn't necessarily some wily, scheming super villain, I'm not making excuses for him.
I'm trying to tell you that in fact he looks just like a normal guy.
You will never understand anything from the perspective of an abuse victim, if you insist on seeing abusers as these "duh obviously he's a monster" types with no possibly positive qualities. The point of understanding that, isn't to get you to like him or excuse him, it's to comprehend how these things happen.
Sometimes it's not even that we are "fooled" by him pretending to be a nice guy or a normal man.
More often that not, he IS a "nice guy" and a normal man. Until the day he isn't. That day might come once every 6 months or once every 20 years. But people don't walk around with obvious labels, they don't 100% act and talk a specific way so that you'd know that this guy is abusive, they don't live pre-sorted into neat little bins. They don't slink around twirling their evil mustaches.
They are common. They are "normal." They look just like you, me and everybody else. Hell, sometimes they are even heroes. Mine went to war, let the Army break his body, to serve his country and support his family. He would have quite eagerly laid down his life to protect us. But then a few years later, he was threatening us with guns...because a man who, at times, was even a really good man...has mental health problems and sometimes he snaps. Not excusing it. Not saying he deserves forgiveness.
I want you to understand that it's not that abuse victims are idiots or wide eyed stupid baby deer in the headlights. With some of these people, anyone can be fooled because it isn't always even an act. People are not one-dimensional, and even abusers are complex.
Now some of them, like my ex, do go around saying and doing things that, while they are not exactly abusive, they are a bit shocking or boundary pushing. Like for instance, spouting off pushy alt-right political things at random cashiers in stores - I guess because he thinks he's making a joke that other people will laugh at? He doesn't seem to get that if they do, it's awkwardly because he sounds like a nut. Or maybe he wants to make them uncomfortable. People who act like internet trolls in real life, are what I'm talking about...they are testing the boundaries of EVERYONE AROUND THEM to see what other people will put up with, in a sense. I know another guy who gets super intense about girls early on and bombs them with long texts...in today's day and age, he's having no luck finding a partner. People know better.
Thing is, there are lots and lots of people who have posted around these forums over the years who would likely be, if not necessarily physical abusers, verbal/emotional abusers in a real relationship if they had one. They don't see it, and even if they were DOING it they probably wouldn't see it. Lots of mentally ill people don't even realize that they are mentally ill.
It isn't an excuse. There is no excuse for harming another person.
EDIT: Most who suffer from mental health issues are not abusers or harmful to others. When that's part of the picture, it is never an excuse but sometimes it is a reason.
But there are and always HAVE been a lot more abusive people out there than some people (especially men) think. Or want to believe. I could almost guarantee that in your life, you've been good friends with at least one if not several and never even knew it.
And while yes, it's true that women can be abusers also, and abuse can definitely happen in all sorts of relationships and gender configurations, and I have never said that it could not...
There are some pretty stark differences in terms of statistical commonality, severity, and a whole lot of other factors that are part of the picture. Such as certain professions where DV is more common and who make up most of the people working in them. Lots of stuff that's pretty well beside the point. But while I have all the sympathy for abused men, too, and feel that they must have the same access to support and should be believed... I won't readily accept the shutting down and derailment of a conversation with the deployment of an ever-handy, "but what about men?" So long as it's not deflection, we're good...
But anyhow, OP you questioned why women almost seem to normalize this and men consider it more horrifying and all... It's because you can't really get your head around the idea that no, actually, some dudes you know, some dudes all around you, normal seeming men who are not obvious "monsters" do in fact commit abusive acts in relationships, to women. Women experience abusive behavior with a degree of commonness that is uncomfortable for men to think about. And the world is not as simple as a lot of men I've known really want it to be...it's nuanced and complex. People aren't all cowboys riding around in black or white hats.
While I more often than not agree with you, there are serious serious flaws in the above. In your attempt to make one point, you are making multiple errors on others.
What you have done in your post is to somehow create a "NIGYYSOAB" (loosely, "Now I've got you!") where any event can be used to immediately slap on a label of "abuser." That is not how it works.
My retired policewoman GF once commented to me "Given the right set of circumstances, ANYONE can be a murderer, NO exceptions." It was a sobering statement, but one from someone who had ample life experience to back it up.
Using your logic, that normal people are only seemingly normal - until they aren't, EVERYONE is a murderer, they just have not murdered anyone - yet. Following your logic further, we can then go back retrospectively and say "That person was always a murderer." That is pure horse-hockey.
Just as a murderer is not a murderer until there is a murder committed, an abuser is not an abuser until there has been abuse committed. To claim otherwise is to have your logic circling around the drain, spiraling out of reality.
By saying that an abuser might only act out after twenty years, you are mind reading, projecting, and claiming a type of omniscience that no therapist or lawyer would ever claim. There CAN be predisposing factors, but those are a dime a dozen and of limited use except as partial explanations.
You also seem to be glossing over intent. In doing so, so are again veering towards black and white thinking that is less than helpful or even accurate.
I'll give an example in extremis: When working at the state hospital, there was a patient on one of the wards housing organic brain disordered individuals who bit the toe off another patient while that patient was sleeping in the dorm. Was that abuse? I am certain that it felt like an abuse to that poor patient, but the other patient did not have the brain capable of determining right from wrong or action and consequence.
In the courts, there are various definitions of murder, and measured and appropriate legal responses; first degree capital, second degree, manslaughter and such. In calling a person an abuser, the lay person has no descriptive adjectives to describe the level or even intent of abuse. That is problematic, as "abuser" is a trigger word for many, and immediately evokes the worst possible definition.
Again taking it to the extreme; many do not see spanking a child as a correction as abuse. A simple response of slapping a child's hand away from a hot stove can be perceived as child abuse. Anyone who has ever committed an act that is perceived by the law as an assault is an abuser or worse.
In a relationship, ANY relationship, there are multiple minor acts which could be claimed as abusive if the perception is primed. A spouse goes to a store and it does not have the flavor ice-cream desired by their mate. A different ice-cream is selected. Upon return, there can be a variety of responses.
Many start with: "This isn't what I wanted..." What happens next and what is said can culminate in a simple
"Oh. Thank-you anyway for trying" and a neutral emotional response
-or-
it can become a screaming match where phrases are tossed back and forth, such as "Are you gaslighting me?," "You must not have looked very hard," "I can't trust you to do anything!" "You are too picky!" and so on occur.
Just like beauty, abuse can be in the eye of the beholder.
There is a type of emotional high that comes from anger - take a look in the P&OC forum if you want more examples than I could ever provide. There is an emotional high that can come from abuse or being abused. Those are physical and hormonal responses, ones that a Spock would never understand, ones that seemingly defy logic.
There are types of abuse that are pathological and go far beyond slapping a child's hand away from a hot stove. There are patterns of behavior that support abuse - either intentionally or unintentionally. Many, if not most people, have no concept of "Non-violent Communication" and engage in such patterns without awareness.
There are parts of this thread that are very much intent on blaming and being punitive and lashing out, while doing nothing towards any understanding of dynamics. As for who is an abuser? EVERYONE is an abuser, most unintentionally and through lack of education about personal interactions. The only difference is in degree.
If anyone reading this is interested in getting away from the abuse cycle, I strongly suggest reading Eugene Gendlin's "Focusing" and finding a local group for practice. There are flaws in it, but learning non-violent communication and applying it in real life can have great positive effect.
I would comment more on NVC and caveats, but that is beyond the scope of this thread.
@harry chickpea, I'm not completely sure how to take your response, honestly. I feel that rather than...I dunno, arguing AGAINST the intent behind what I was trying to say, you took it and expanded on it in a way that's almost helpful. Because I was trying to make the point that when people are trying to ask, "why are abuse victims drawn to these terrible abusive partners"...it just isn't that simple.
To repeat an important bit from my post, I've found it to be one of the harder parts about this to speak to or explain. But if one does nothing to try and unpack any of this piece, one cannot possibly conceptualize what it might be like from the perspective of someone who has been in an abusive relationship, especially someone who did not immediately up and leave on a dime.
Now, I don't actually feel bad about using the very word, "abuser." Because I was with one, and given certain incidents in our relationship, AND more info I got later about behavior I did not know about when it was happening, AND more that his ex wife later told me about how he behaved towards her... He has a pattern. But he tends to think that his actions are justified by whatever stimulus "pushed him." As though any man, if someone makes him angry, will naturally explode into violence and rage. How could he possibly help it? As though the natural inclination of a man is to go around beating up or threatening any other male his love interest may have spoken to, just so they don't get ideas... It's all framed in terms of "what it means to be a man" for him. If other people aren't afraid of you, are you even a man?
Is this true? Not in my opinion. And I think that attitudes about this have shifted since I met my ex, a lot of his thoughts about how to be come from a culture one can see in 80s movies, he sees non-violence as weak. I don't, I think that the strongest man must first be in control of himself. But the fact that things are different compared to, say, 1997...well, my ex has yet to find a woman who will consent to be in a relationship with him, these 7 years gone by.
But see all of this you talk about... Yes, it's very nuanced. And there are matters of degree. And all of it can make the waters VERY muddy for someone who is trying to decide if they should try to leave. Like I knew, 100% from the beginning, that if I tried to leave my ex, it was going to be ugly. The intensity of his love and need...he enmeshed his identity with whoever he was with. Losing a partner, was a huge threat to his concept of self. It was never going to be easy. So long as it was just...stress, emotional torment, tantrums and occasional humiliation... Was it really bad enough? To be one of those flighty selfish women, to break up my family? But then...by the time I did it, he was patrolling the house with a loaded AK, which he slept with (this is the man who once grabbed our son when he was about 7 years old by the throat when the kid woke him up in the night)... He was making our home feel literally like a hostage situation, and our kids had to live through that.
Because I was trying to see his side of things, how he was a product of his life, to see his humanity...which I did. And still do. To view him as a mentally ill family member who needed help, until it became clear that he was refusing to get it. Because he was a damn good man, a lot of the time.
Except when he wasn't.
This isn't about an argument over ice cream, though. It may have taken way too long for me to accept the word, "abuser" into context with regard to him. But though it's far from the only aspect of who he is, it is one of the things that he is. And has been. And still is at times, if not to me. (He's threatened people with guns within the last year, in escalation of what was otherwise a verbal argument.) Why, one may wonder, does no one call the police on this guy? Well, maybe because dying in a gunfight with cops is one of his fondest wishes. Or possibly because the cops in his town are a lot like him in mindset and sympathies and there's no guarantee that they'd even do anything...and even if they did, he wouldn't be removed from society for good nor would guns forever be out of his ability to get. All it would do, is enrage him, most likely. And paint a target on the back of whoever made the call. It wouldn't accomplish anything useful, that I can see.
Mind you. This man never hit me. He never shoved me, bruised me, hurt me physically. I've always thought, it probably would have been a much more clear cut situation, easier to know what to do a lot sooner, if he had.
But please tell me, what intent might make it more reasonable and understandable for him to threaten his family with guns? There were more incidents of that than just the AK, too. Should one not use a word like "abuser" in speaking of such a person, lest others get the wrong idea and judge him?
Years after our split, I spoke to his ex wife before me, and she told me that he'd once emptied the clip of a handgun into the wall right next to her head during an argument. So...I'm gonna call that a pattern.
He's like the poster child for red flag laws, but no surprise, he's part of the segment of America that's very much against them. Who gets to say!? And after all... Aside from whatever did or did not happen in Iraq, he hasn't shot or killed anybody. Yet. In fact, I give pretty good odds he may not, ever. But that doesn't mean I think he's capable of a healthy relationship. I don't hate the guy but I wouldn't wish him on any woman I know.
EDIT:
I really hope that others are picking up on contradictions and confusion in my logic here. Are we supposed to judge this man or are we not? He sounds like a monster but you say he's been a really good man sometimes. You don't hate him but you paint a picture that invites one to hate him? YES, EXACTLY. Because going through something like this is pretty much all about having your brain turned inside out. It sounds confusing, I very much hope, because it really is.
My abuser learned it growing up. He was once the little boy getting his butt kicked by his dad. He was abused and wasn't given any coping strategies. Instead he learned violence to deal with frustration. I'm pretty sure he had an anxiety disorder on top of it. I know he felt justified by some of the things he would say. Had he been able to take responsibility for himself he could have solved generational cycles and probably had a nice life. As it is I know he was arrested several times for domestic violence over the years and keeps trying to find a partner. I don't think he strategized or anything. If he did he really sucks at it. I never did tell him why I was walking out the door. Even if I had I doubt he would have understood.
@harry chickpea, I'm not completely sure how to take your response, honestly. I feel that rather than...I dunno, arguing AGAINST the intent behind what I was trying to say, you took it and expanded on it in a way that's almost helpful. Because I was trying to make the point that when people are trying to ask, "why are abuse victims drawn to these terrible abusive partners"...it just isn't that simple.
To repeat an important bit from my post, I've found it to be one of the harder parts about this to speak to or explain. But if one does nothing to try and unpack any of this piece, one cannot possibly conceptualize what it might be like from the perspective of someone who has been in an abusive relationship, especially someone who did not immediately up and leave on a dime.
Now, I don't actually feel bad about using the very word, "abuser." Because I was with one, and given certain incidents in our relationship, AND more info I got later about behavior I did not know about when it was happening, AND more that his ex wife later told me about how he behaved towards her... He has a pattern. But he tends to think that his actions are justified by whatever stimulus "pushed him." As though any man, if someone makes him angry, will naturally explode into violence and rage. How could he possibly help it? As though the natural inclination of a man is to go around beating up or threatening any other male his love interest may have spoken to, just so they don't get ideas... It's all framed in terms of "what it means to be a man" for him. If other people aren't afraid of you, are you even a man?
Is this true? Not in my opinion. And I think that attitudes about this have shifted since I met my ex, a lot of his thoughts about how to be come from a culture one can see in 80s movies, he sees non-violence as weak. I don't, I think that the strongest man must first be in control of himself. But the fact that things are different compared to, say, 1997...well, my ex has yet to find a woman who will consent to be in a relationship with him, these 7 years gone by.
But see all of this you talk about... Yes, it's very nuanced. And there are matters of degree. And all of it can make the waters VERY muddy for someone who is trying to decide if they should try to leave. Like I knew, 100% from the beginning, that if I tried to leave my ex, it was going to be ugly. The intensity of his love and need...he enmeshed his identity with whoever he was with. Losing a partner, was a huge threat to his concept of self. It was never going to be easy. So long as it was just...stress, emotional torment, tantrums and occasional humiliation... Was it really bad enough? To be one of those flighty selfish women, to break up my family? But then...by the time I did it, he was patrolling the house with a loaded AK, which he slept with (this is the man who once grabbed our son when he was about 7 years old by the throat when the kid woke him up in the night)... He was making our home feel literally like a hostage situation, and our kids had to live through that.
Because I was trying to see his side of things, how he was a product of his life, to see his humanity...which I did. And still do. To view him as a mentally ill family member who needed help, until it became clear that he was refusing to get it. Because he was a damn good man, a lot of the time.
Except when he wasn't.
This isn't about an argument over ice cream, though. It may have taken way too long for me to accept the word, "abuser" into context with regard to him. But though it's far from the only aspect of who he is, it is one of the things that he is. And has been. And still is at times, if not to me. (He's threatened people with guns within the last year, in escalation of what was otherwise a verbal argument.) Why, one may wonder, does no one call the police on this guy? Well, maybe because dying in a gunfight with cops is one of his fondest wishes. Or possibly because the cops in his town are a lot like him in mindset and sympathies and there's no guarantee that they'd even do anything...and even if they did, he wouldn't be removed from society for good nor would guns forever be out of his ability to get. All it would do, is enrage him, most likely. And paint a target on the back of whoever made the call. It wouldn't accomplish anything useful, that I can see.
Mind you. This man never hit me. He never shoved me, bruised me, hurt me physically. I've always thought, it probably would have been a much more clear cut situation, easier to know what to do a lot sooner, if he had.
But please tell me, what intent might make it more reasonable and understandable for him to threaten his family with guns? There were more incidents of that than just the AK, too. Should one not use a word like "abuser" in speaking of such a person, lest others get the wrong idea and judge him?
Years after our split, I spoke to his ex wife before me, and she told me that he'd once emptied the clip of a handgun into the wall right next to her head during an argument. So...I'm gonna call that a pattern.
He's like the poster child for red flag laws, but no surprise, he's part of the segment of America that's very much against them. Who gets to say!? And after all... Aside from whatever did or did not happen in Iraq, he hasn't shot or killed anybody. Yet. In fact, I give pretty good odds he may not, ever. But that doesn't mean I think he's capable of a healthy relationship. I don't hate the guy but I wouldn't wish him on any woman I know.
EDIT:
I really hope that others are picking up on contradictions and confusion in my logic here. Are we supposed to judge this man or are we not? He sounds like a monster but you say he's been a really good man sometimes. You don't hate him but you paint a picture that invites one to hate him? YES, EXACTLY. Because going through something like this is pretty much all about having your brain turned inside out. It sounds confusing, I very much hope, because it really is.
I'm glad to be "almost" helpful!
Read through your post from the metaview you are often using, and you will see the parts of it which are defensive. (I get defensive at times too, that is not an indictment but a call for clarity.)
Obviously, in your case, it isn't about ice cream. That wasn't my point anyway. My point was that for every extreme situation, there are hundreds of petty situations that have the potential of building into larger and even extreme situations over time, if there is not intervention or some clarity, or some education. My goal in my post was to drain the charge of the lightning storm you appeared to be starting to revel in, to show folks how to protect against lightning bolts.
What is, is. What was, was. Justifying, explaining, excusing, rehashing, only serves any purpose as that of education. Clearly, there was a strong emotional abuse component and threat of violence in your past relationship. What was, was. That relationship does not define every other relationship, as you well know. It does not even define every abusive relationship. It defines YOUR past relationship, nothing else. Please own that.
Warnings for others, relating of your experiences, showing ways forward are all good. The container of that past relationship can leak in other ways though, ways that are not helpful. As you might tell by now, I speak not only from knowledge but from my own past experience.
There was a time in my life when I went to work and left the mate I knew, and came back from work to a completely different woman in the same body, for no apparent reason. I've had my mind turned inside out a few times, not only from that, but other experiences that are none of anyone else's business. There are secrets and past events that will go to the grave with me.
Hate. Hate is very much the emotion of the recent era. When I was a child, preachers and ministers and priests and rabbis ALL gave multiple sermons about the dangers of it. Our recent leaders, past and present, seem to rejoice that there is hate to spread. It is sick. If there ever was an anti-Christ, it would be a Christ-like figure using hate as the method of proselytizing. Bring it back to a personal level.
Bring it back to REAL emotion that hasn't been politicized or monetized. Emotions are the shortcuts that inform you (hopefully) if something is good or bad for you and your survival, without the intellect getting involved.
While you were in your abusive relationship, hate was your friend trying to guide you. With distance from that relationship, intellect and time fill in why it was so important and why and how it can be stored away safely, in case it is needed again. Brandishing it now is in some ways similar to brandishing an AK in public. You don't, but it is obvious that your AK is sleeping with you.
Neither you, nor I, nor anyone else will stop abusive relationships from happening. Within some communities, there is a possibility of minimizing those, given the proper tools and education and willingness to educate children from an early age. If you want oak trees to not fall on houses in a storm, you have to plant the acorns in the right place and nourish them properly so that they are strong. The best we can do with mature oaks is selective pruning and recognition of the existing flaws.
In a review before posting this, as is usual with me, I reviewed your post for about the tenth time. You use a boatload of rhetorical questions, but one stood out:
But please tell me, what intent might make it more reasonable and understandable for him to threaten his family with guns? There were more incidents of that than just the AK, too. Should one not use a word like "abuser" in speaking of such a person, lest others get the wrong idea and judge him?
That is a direct question, and I will answer it. The point of "reasonable and understandable" is misdirected in your question. It is a question that a qualified therapist would ask of him and carefully listen to the answers given. In conjunction with other questions and a non-judgmental attitude, AND a willing client, it would allow him to work through what is reasonable and what is not, so that the core of understanding was WITHIN him and not imposed upon him by the therapist or others. The healing of any individual has to come from within. It can be assisted from outside, but unless it is owned, it gets tossed.
I was with an abuser from the age of 16 to the age of 32. I left because we had a child and as he was getting older (age 5) I feared his fathers abusive behavior towards me would effect him and knew I would not forgive myself if I didn't leave before he might lose it on him. My abuser tried to get help before baby was born from his general practitioner by asking for a referral to see a counselor or psychiatrist to help him with his temper so it would not effect his son. His doctor denied the request saying that if he was aware his behavior was wrong he should just quit doing it.
Sometime after I left I was dealing with my narcissistic mother and realized that she had set me up for this relationship with him. How? She always told me my entire life that I was bad and selfish- that I was going to be in and out of prison like me father had been. She also said that no one would ever like me cause my personality was just not likeable. That I deserved to be bullied at school because I was stuck up or not being nice enough to the kids at this school that was in the ghetto. I was bused to a small town called Guadalupe in Az (Frank Elementary) where the kids were much tougher than the school I had attended before she remarried and moved us. The principle said I got jumped and beat up because I was not an ugly duckling and dressed too nice. My mother later said on many occasions that she felt bad for the kids because their homes must of been terrible and that is why they treated me the way they did.
She kicked me out the first time when I was 12 years old - and continued to do so until I was 16 and ended up living with my future spouse and abuser. Her reasoning was that he was hitting me and they didn't want any of this to have an effect on my little sisters. She drove me to get an abortion at 17 yrs old and when I came home he beat me up so bad I had
to go to hospital for haemorrhaging and she hung up on the nurse that called to get permission to treat me and then took her phone off the hook. I could go on and on but you can kind of get the drift.
When she was a mess from her drinking problem my step father told me she was my problem. I took care of her trying to save her life until the day she died (which was 10 yrs) from falling and had too many brain bleeds to fix. Why? Because she was my mother and even though she never loved me I loved her. We only get one mother and I think we come preprogrammed to love our parents because I can not explain why I loved her so much but I did. I finally realized though that she taught me that a person being mean to you was what loving you was like. This happened because when I was little and did not understand that she was not capable of loving me - I thought she did and this was what love was. I also believed that something was wrong with me because she always said there was. Thus making it very easy for me to fall into an abusive relationship with my ex for way too long. It is hard to love yourself when your mother does not and believe that you are worthy of anything. I think this can kind of explain how it happened for me anyway.
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