Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Yeah, I dunno harry chickpea, I'm still not sure how much understanding there is or isn't here. I mean, there's never been hate on my part for my ex. Not then, not now. Hate has never been part of it.
I can speak honestly about the things that happened, and if anyone is picking up "hate" from that, they are overlaying some vibes of their own. Really the reason that I enumerate some of the particular offenses in my past situations...is so that it is understood that this was not some "she is overreacting about trifling arguments, saying she was abused and gaslighted, as women do"...which was kinda an implication I was picking up in your posts.
Really pretty much any time I put those details into writing or speak them, coming from (as I've been saying) a place where there was much confusion, a muddy field of good and bad and questions of whether it's even reasonable for me to wish to live a safe, peaceful or happy life, or am I selfish and wrong or what...all of that... And I admit, I was not innocent of any wrongdoing in that marriage either. But there are clear lines, in my opinion, of things that one just DOES NOT DO.
And those things are the only things, that make me feel sure that leaving him was right.
Like even though I left misery and stress and now live in peace and joy in my second marriage, and things are so good...was I entitled to that? I have some survivor's guilt. People have mentioned "trauma bonding"...like, I left my battle buddy in the trench and he's still wallowing there wounded to this day, while I went home and thrived, that's how I feel sometimes.
But he threatened my life. He was terrorizing our kids. I had to. Didn't I? I think so.
The thing here that I'm trying so hard to convey, I feel like it keeps getting lost or almost lost... OP started this thread (which I think isn't his first on the subject) with the premise of, "I don't understand" regarding an aspect of an abused person's psychology. Well, in my mind, it begs the question...
Do you actually WANT to understand?
Or are you stating that you don't understand, probably will not understand, and may defend your position of not-understanding?
Because this is not about whether you, the outside observer, thinks that an abuser is a monster or whatever your opinion is of that individual. All of my walls of text are trying to get one to understand how a person who has been abused, views their abuser. You cannot say, "I see Bob as MONSTER and you should agree!" to someone who has known Bob for decades and knows all the layers of good and bad. They have a more nuanced view of this person than you do, and that does not blink out of existence the moment that Bob does something horrible.
So you have Hypothetical Bob the abusive partner... Who is at the same time, the complex human being who may have tremendous and very real love for you...who has perhaps even made great sacrifices for his family, who is not some belligerent cardboard cutout from a movie, a trailer park guy in a tank top with a beer and a shotgun bellowing and hitting people. No, he's intelligent, he's funny, and he is capable of love, and some of them express it more deeply than many people do. But when he flips, when he becomes the darker version of himself, it's like he cannot see or hear his behavior. I think of all the times I wanted so badly to record him on video and then play it back to him when he had calmed down, and be like, "Dude. This was you. Do you even know what you look like, what you sound like...?" Because when the storm had blown over, he'd act as though it had never happened.
Really it wouldn't even shock me if one day they find that some of these kinds of people who commit domestic violence or serious abuse in relationships, actually have some kind of dissociative identity disorder because that was always part of how it felt, very "Jekyll & Hyde." (Again, trying to explain why it was confusing, and why dealing with this is like living in a strange reality, and how isolating it is that other people don't get it. Don't even want to, it sometimes feels like.)
Seriously though I am neither trying to excuse abusive behavior, nor to invite judgment and condemnation. None of that serves any purpose. I don't care what anybody thinks about my ex, I'm just sharing a perspective. And the reason that I try to do this, is that if one wishes to offer meaningful support to some person in their lives who is IN one of these situations, you don't really accomplish that from a frustrated place of, "I just don't understand why she doesn't agree with me...take my advice..." etc. A place of helping that is full of one's own ego. Being truly supportive means accepting that the situation and the people involved, are complicated. And healing is a long road.
Yeah, I dunno harry chickpea, I'm still not sure how much understanding there is or isn't here. I mean, there's never been hate on my part for my ex. Not then, not now. Hate has never been part of it.
I can speak honestly about the things that happened, and if anyone is picking up "hate" from that, they are overlaying some vibes of their own. Really the reason that I enumerate some of the particular offenses in my past situations...is so that it is understood that this was not some "she is overreacting about trifling arguments, saying she was abused and gaslighted, as women do"...which was kinda an implication I was picking up in your posts.
Really pretty much any time I put those details into writing or speak them, coming from (as I've been saying) a place where there was much confusion, a muddy field of good and bad and questions of whether it's even reasonable for me to wish to live a safe, peaceful or happy life, or am I selfish and wrong or what...all of that... And I admit, I was not innocent of any wrongdoing in that marriage either. But there are clear lines, in my opinion, of things that one just DOES NOT DO.
And those things are the only things, that make me feel sure that leaving him was right.
Like even though I left misery and stress and now live in peace and joy in my second marriage, and things are so good...was I entitled to that? I have some survivor's guilt. People have mentioned "trauma bonding"...like, I left my battle buddy in the trench and he's still wallowing there wounded to this day, while I went home and thrived, that's how I feel sometimes.
But he threatened my life. He was terrorizing our kids. I had to. Didn't I? I think so.
The thing here that I'm trying so hard to convey, I feel like it keeps getting lost or almost lost... OP started this thread (which I think isn't his first on the subject) with the premise of, "I don't understand" regarding an aspect of an abused person's psychology. Well, in my mind, it begs the question...
Do you actually WANT to understand?
Or are you stating that you don't understand, probably will not understand, and may defend your position of not-understanding?
Because this is not about whether you, the outside observer, thinks that an abuser is a monster or whatever your opinion is of that individual. All of my walls of text are trying to get one to understand how a person who has been abused, views their abuser. You cannot say, "I see Bob as MONSTER and you should agree!" to someone who has known Bob for decades and knows all the layers of good and bad. They have a more nuanced view of this person than you do, and that does not blink out of existence the moment that Bob does something horrible.
So you have Hypothetical Bob the abusive partner... Who is at the same time, the complex human being who may have tremendous and very real love for you...who has perhaps even made great sacrifices for his family, who is not some belligerent cardboard cutout from a movie, a trailer park guy in a tank top with a beer and a shotgun bellowing and hitting people. No, he's intelligent, he's funny, and he is capable of love, and some of them express it more deeply than many people do. But when he flips, when he becomes the darker version of himself, it's like he cannot see or hear his behavior. I think of all the times I wanted so badly to record him on video and then play it back to him when he had calmed down, and be like, "Dude. This was you. Do you even know what you look like, what you sound like...?" Because when the storm had blown over, he'd act as though it had never happened.
Really it wouldn't even shock me if one day they find that some of these kinds of people who commit domestic violence or serious abuse in relationships, actually have some kind of dissociative identity disorder because that was always part of how it felt, very "Jekyll & Hyde." (Again, trying to explain why it was confusing, and why dealing with this is like living in a strange reality, and how isolating it is that other people don't get it. Don't even want to, it sometimes feels like.)
Seriously though I am neither trying to excuse abusive behavior, nor to invite judgment and condemnation. None of that serves any purpose. I don't care what anybody thinks about my ex, I'm just sharing a perspective. And the reason that I try to do this, is that if one wishes to offer meaningful support to some person in their lives who is IN one of these situations, you don't really accomplish that from a frustrated place of, "I just don't understand why she doesn't agree with me...take my advice..." etc. A place of helping that is full of one's own ego. Being truly supportive means accepting that the situation and the people involved, are complicated. And healing is a long road.
“ a place of helping that is full of one’s ego”
Nope for me it was worrying and about caring about people I love who were in an extremely dangerous situation and could have gotten killed. I don’t know why that’s such a weird concept to you.
I could go to sleep at night better knowing I did everything I can to try to save someone I love rather then tip toe around it because it’s a complex situation.
As I said I was not saying it in a condescending or angry tone I said it in a way you’d tell anyone you love who’s in a dangerous situation to be careful.
In fact even though at the time the advice seemed to go in one ear and put the other each person I tried to help later thanked me for being one of the only people who helped them and made them feel like they had someone in their corner during all of this.
Most people I know who are drawn to abusive relationships were abused physically and/or sexually(usually both) as a child
Is it a matter of low self esteem where they don’t think they deserve better?
Or is it a normalcy thing where it’s all they know and they don’t even realize it’s a bad thing to be abused because it’s what they endured growing up.
My brother is schizoaffective/bipolar. That is a mood disorder that causes him at times to emotionally dysregulate but you can think of it as he gets caught up in emotional feedback loops, so he doesn't always handle real strong emotional feelings well.
With any disease, there is the issue of how much can you accommodate it? People with heart disease occationally have heart attacks, people with diabetes may need to take insulin. Generally we don't blame people for things that are symptoms of their disease that aren't volitional choices -that they can't fully control. I would say that is the reason though a lot of women are willing to initially overlook some of his lower level boundary violations. So if he cussed a woman out that he is dating and then takes a klonopin and that seems to address the issue, well she may decide I can deal that, it's not him it's the illness and that is true, but he still cussed this woman out. But there is also this frog in boiling water problem. Where because you have put up with some bad behavior because of the illness where do you draw the line? If he is cussing at you and then takes a klonopin and you allow that, do you allow it if he cusses at you and grabs your arm and then takes a klonopin or if he actually hits you and then takes a klonopin? In each case the cause really is the illness. But even if the abuse isn't volitional on the part of the abuser, you are still stuck dealing with it.
Mental illness are just tough to deal with and navigate.
I don't think most of my brother's ex girlfriends were targeted because they were specifically emotionally vulnerable to predatory abusers as much as the line between what should and shouldnt be willing to put up with here just isn't that clear for a lot of them in this situation. So I want to broaden the class of people who get abused to something broader than what Sonic was talking about, not that I disagree with her.
But there is also the notion of what constitutes love in this situation? There is a tension between enforcing boundaries and being loving. A lot of times enduring a boundary violation is equated as an act of love. The narrative we tell ourselves is that we are doing this for love. I think that this notion comes out of codependence. But a lot of people's notion of love involves making dramatic efforts on behalf of someone else.
My brother is schizoaffective/bipolar. That is a mood disorder that causes him at times to emotionally dysregulate but you can think of it as he gets caught up in emotional feedback loops, so he doesn't always handle real strong emotional feelings well.
With any disease, there is the issue of how much can you accommodate it? People with heart disease occationally have heart attacks, people with diabetes may need to take insulin. Generally we don't blame people for things that are symptoms of their disease that aren't volitional choices -that they can't fully control. I would say that is the reason though a lot of women are willing to initially overlook some of his lower level boundary violations. So if he cussed a woman out that he is dating and then takes a klonopin and that seems to address the issue, well she may decide I can deal that, it's not him it's the illness and that is true, but he still cussed this woman out. But there is also this frog in boiling water problem. Where because you have put up with some bad behavior because of the illness where do you draw the line? If he is cussing at you and then takes a klonopin and you allow that, do you allow it if he cusses at you and grabs your arm and then takes a klonopin or if he actually hits you and then takes a klonopin? In each case the cause really is the illness. But even if the abuse isn't volitional on the part of the abuser, you are still stuck dealing with it.
Mental illness are just tough to deal with and navigate.
I don't think most of my brother's ex girlfriends were targeted because they were specifically emotionally vulnerable to predatory abusers as much as the line between what should and shouldnt be willing to put up with here just isn't that clear for a lot of them in this situation. So I want to broaden the class of people who get abused to something broader than what Sonic was talking about, not that I disagree with her.
But there is also the notion of what constitutes love in this situation? There is a tension between enforcing boundaries and being loving. A lot of times enduring a boundary violation is equated as an act of love. The narrative we tell ourselves is that we are doing this for love. I think that this notion comes out of codependence. But a lot of people's notion of love involves making dramatic efforts on behalf of someone else.
I think the issue with mental illness is whether people are willing to obtain treatment. Unfortunately, a symptom of some mental illness is that people are reluctant to take medications. I have a friend who ended up getting divorced from her abusive husband and this was the reason. He would take his meds, feel better, then decide to stop cold turkey. Rinse and repeat. He didn’t realize he felt better because the meds were working, meanwhile, she had to go through the mood swings and abusive behavior when he was refusing to take his medicines.
I don't care how complex or nuanced the abusive person and situation may be, or the reasons they are how they are, my children's lives are threatened and all bets are off.
Sonic, your ex sounds damn terrifying. That is without judgment of his character. One needs to give a wide berth to people with anger issues who play with guns.
I'm not sure what the purpose is of analyzing dangerous unstable individuals who don't see the problem with their behavior. This type of behavior overrides any complexity of character.
Nope for me it was worrying and about caring about people I love who were in an extremely dangerous situation and could have gotten killed. I don’t know why that’s such a weird concept to you.
I could go to sleep at night better knowing I did everything I can to try to save someone I love rather then tip toe around it because it’s a complex situation.
As I said I was not saying it in a condescending or angry tone I said it in a way you’d tell anyone you love who’s in a dangerous situation to be careful.
In fact even though at the time the advice seemed to go in one ear and put the other each person I tried to help later thanked me for being one of the only people who helped them and made them feel like they had someone in their corner during all of this.
I was on these boards when I was in the period of time it took to get out of my situation. I really needed support, someone to listen, to reassure me that I am not the crazy one, or the abuser, because the mental aspect of this kind of thing is that there are times that everything is all upside down. I needed to be able to be strong, take one step at a time, one day after the next, step after step in the right direction of getting away and out, and I needed to have any kind of faith that something better was possible on the other side.
I learned during this time that forums like this will be full of people who not only don't understand, they don't really want to, they'll have lots of fun baiting me in circular arguments and the only way in which they really want to "help" is to say something that makes them feel virtuous... So what I got was "Run, run, now!" Which, in the real world of my life, would mean losing my job. I could never have replaced it with anything that paid well, so poverty for the rest of my life. Homelessness for who knows how long. Kids pulled out of school, possibly taken away from me. Maybe put into foster care, and hey, I'm sure that would have been fine. Not like every adult I've ever known who went through that doesn't have stories about severe abuse... The reality is, the support structures that are in place in communities are nowhere near as robust and "happily every after, it'll all be fine" as strangers insist, assume, demand to think. And really, they don't care what my life will be like. They don't know me. All they care about is whether I'm listening to them on a forum. Am I doing what they said? If not, I must just love being in my problems. If not, then I deserve to be abused, to die even, for the sake of them being able to smugly say they were right and I was wrong.
Or. They could have said, "God, that sounds awful. I'm here for you if you need to talk. Keep on the path, you can find better and you deserve better." Or if they were actual people in my real life, they could have offered real life support. Material, actual support. But see, ages ago the first time I wanted to leave my ex, I had family who were kinda on the fence about offering me support because the thought is...what does that look like? They wanted to be the virtuous saviors, but they definitely did not want a young pregnant woman with a baby to come and mooch on their couch a while, the real situation of actually offering real help...would have been an imposition. Thing is, everyone wants to say, "If you need anything, just ask"...but everyone is silently adding on, "...but actually, don't."
How much actual real life assistance would you be able and willing to offer to your loved one if/when the time comes and she is ready to take real steps?
What if it's not a quick, one and done heroic act...what if it's months of slogging through putting her life back together? That's a lot. The point here is that when someone gets frustrated that an abused person does not hurry up and slam the door on the problem, implement an instant and drastic fix or change, when it takes time, when it is difficult, when it is complex, you get all impatient and angry that they are not acting... You can say it's because it's a torment watching the situation unfold and that is true, but they are in it in all of the complexities and factors. For them, it isn't simple. If that makes you mad, then that's a you problem. And adding your anger to the weight they are already carrying, is indeed burdening them with your ego, because they don't believe you'd actually be of REAL help if they needed it...you just want to be one who offered. The world is full of that.
And due to the nature of isolating most abusers do, most abused people feel this isolation very keenly. There is no real help being offered by anyone, they are on their own. Even if you mean it, they might not believe you, and that's why I'm trying to get this down, to explain this...every time other people show that they don't understand and let their frustration or anger at the situation show, an abused person reads in the message, "They don't understand. I am on my own here." It reinforces the isolation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tamajane
I don't care how complex or nuanced the abusive person and situation may be, or the reasons they are how they are, my children's lives are threatened and all bets are off.
Sonic, your ex sounds damn terrifying. That is without judgment of his character. One needs to give a wide berth to people with anger issues who play with guns.
I'm not sure what the purpose is of analyzing dangerous unstable individuals who don't see the problem with their behavior. This type of behavior overrides any complexity of character.
Fortunately most people do give him a wide berth. He is too old to snag an impressionable young adult now, and more mature women can spot his red flags for miles.
I keep trying to say what the purpose is, it's not for outside parties like you or the OP to be doing all of this in depth analyzing of their character, the point is that the abuse victim IS DOING IT. No matter if you think they should or should not, they cannot escape the complicatedness. It is so easy for those on the sidelines to say, "It's simple!" but for those in the situations it isn't, and it won't be. And a third party can either accept that and be supportive to them anyways, or get flustered about it and reinforce their isolation. But don't offer help if you won't accept that they have to move at their own pace and do a ton of processing and it won't be a quick, easy snap-your-fingers solution. If you're only supportive for an easy fix and not doing any actual "work" with the person, you're better off not even being involved. Lest you end up being just one more person who says they want to help, but actually doesn't want to be involved.
It's a lot. I get it that outside people might not want to get too involved, because it IS a lot.
Honestly I was better off not talking about my issues with most people, than arguing in places like forums when I was going through it. I did eventually find people whose support was real, patient, listening, understanding, and meaningful.
I want to be very clear that I am not at all suggesting that my ex's behavior was something I could or should have maybe just put up with, or that it was in any way excusable. I understand that some of the "it's simple, this is abuse, you should leave" comes from the reality that yes, that really is the only ultimate answer. But it did take time and careful action. From the point it started to escalate, it took a year before I found a way to "break up" with him, and about another year after that before I was able to move out. The ultimate answer might be simple but getting to the solution often isn't. And just tossing everything up in the air and running off to a shelter would have dumped me into a disastrous and vulnerable position, more likely to end up back with him, and he might have snapped even more dramatically than he did.
I mean...no one died. No one actually got shot. So my way that so outraged the advice givers, did in fact work in the end.
I was on these boards when I was in the period of time it took to get out of my situation. I really needed support, someone to listen, to reassure me that I am not the crazy one, or the abuser, because the mental aspect of this kind of thing is that there are times that everything is all upside down. I needed to be able to be strong, take one step at a time, one day after the next, step after step in the right direction of getting away and out, and I needed to have any kind of faith that something better was possible on the other side.
I learned during this time that forums like this will be full of people who not only don't understand, they don't really want to, they'll have lots of fun baiting me in circular arguments and the only way in which they really want to "help" is to say something that makes them feel virtuous... So what I got was "Run, run, now!" Which, in the real world of my life, would mean losing my job. I could never have replaced it with anything that paid well, so poverty for the rest of my life. Homelessness for who knows how long. Kids pulled out of school, possibly taken away from me. Maybe put into foster care, and hey, I'm sure that would have been fine. Not like every adult I've ever known who went through that doesn't have stories about severe abuse... The reality is, the support structures that are in place in communities are nowhere near as robust and "happily every after, it'll all be fine" as strangers insist, assume, demand to think. And really, they don't care what my life will be like. They don't know me. All they care about is whether I'm listening to them on a forum. Am I doing what they said? If not, I must just love being in my problems. If not, then I deserve to be abused, to die even, for the sake of them being able to smugly say they were right and I was wrong.
Or. They could have said, "God, that sounds awful. I'm here for you if you need to talk. Keep on the path, you can find better and you deserve better." Or if they were actual people in my real life, they could have offered real life support. Material, actual support. But see, ages ago the first time I wanted to leave my ex, I had family who were kinda on the fence about offering me support because the thought is...what does that look like? They wanted to be the virtuous saviors, but they definitely did not want a young pregnant woman with a baby to come and mooch on their couch a while, the real situation of actually offering real help...would have been an imposition. Thing is, everyone wants to say, "If you need anything, just ask"...but everyone is silently adding on, "...but actually, don't."
How much actual real life assistance would you be able and willing to offer to your loved one if/when the time comes and she is ready to take real steps?
What if it's not a quick, one and done heroic act...what if it's months of slogging through putting her life back together? That's a lot. The point here is that when someone gets frustrated that an abused person does not hurry up and slam the door on the problem, implement an instant and drastic fix or change, when it takes time, when it is difficult, when it is complex, you get all impatient and angry that they are not acting... You can say it's because it's a torment watching the situation unfold and that is true, but they are in it in all of the complexities and factors. For them, it isn't simple. If that makes you mad, then that's a you problem. And adding your anger to the weight they are already carrying, is indeed burdening them with your ego, because they don't believe you'd actually be of REAL help if they needed it...you just want to be one who offered. The world is full of that.
And due to the nature of isolating most abusers do, most abused people feel this isolation very keenly. There is no real help being offered by anyone, they are on their own. Even if you mean it, they might not believe you, and that's why I'm trying to get this down, to explain this...every time other people show that they don't understand and let their frustration or anger at the situation show, an abused person reads in the message, "They don't understand. I am on my own here." It reinforces the isolation.
Fortunately most people do give him a wide berth. He is too old to snag an impressionable young adult now, and more mature women can spot his red flags for miles.
I keep trying to say what the purpose is, it's not for outside parties like you or the OP to be doing all of this in depth analyzing of their character, the point is that the abuse victim IS DOING IT. No matter if you think they should or should not, they cannot escape the complicatedness. It is so easy for those on the sidelines to say, "It's simple!" but for those in the situations it isn't, and it won't be. And a third party can either accept that and be supportive to them anyways, or get flustered about it and reinforce their isolation. But don't offer help if you won't accept that they have to move at their own pace and do a ton of processing and it won't be a quick, easy snap-your-fingers solution. If you're only supportive for an easy fix and not doing any actual "work" with the person, you're better off not even being involved. Lest you end up being just one more person who says they want to help, but actually doesn't want to be involved.
It's a lot. I get it that outside people might not want to get too involved, because it IS a lot.
Honestly I was better off not talking about my issues with most people, than arguing in places like forums when I was going through it. I did eventually find people whose support was real, patient, listening, understanding, and meaningful.
I want to be very clear that I am not at all suggesting that my ex's behavior was something I could or should have maybe just put up with, or that it was in any way excusable. I understand that some of the "it's simple, this is abuse, you should leave" comes from the reality that yes, that really is the only ultimate answer. But it did take time and careful action. From the point it started to escalate, it took a year before I found a way to "break up" with him, and about another year after that before I was able to move out. The ultimate answer might be simple but getting to the solution often isn't. And just tossing everything up in the air and running off to a shelter would have dumped me into a disastrous and vulnerable position, more likely to end up back with him, and he might have snapped even more dramatically than he did.
I mean...no one died. No one actually got shot. So my way that so outraged the advice givers, did in fact work in the end.
If I’m not mistaken you said there was never actually any physical abuse. I’m not downplaying other kinds of abuse at all but if their was physical abuse then maybe you would have left much earlier who knows.
But Im not downplaying hard it is to leave.
The line you had about feeling still at times like you left your fellow soldier at war painted a pretty vivid picture for me.
It seems like people abused always carry their deepest connection/bond with their abusers on and off their whole lives which is intense.
No matter how horribly the abused was treated their is still that trauma bond that never fully leaves I guess
I was on these boards when I was in the period of time it took to get out of my situation. I really needed support, someone to listen, to reassure me that I am not the crazy one, or the abuser, because the mental aspect of this kind of thing is that there are times that everything is all upside down. I needed to be able to be strong, take one step at a time, one day after the next, step after step in the right direction of getting away and out, and I needed to have any kind of faith that something better was possible on the other side.
I learned during this time that forums like this will be full of people who not only don't understand, they don't really want to, they'll have lots of fun baiting me in circular arguments and the only way in which they really want to "help" is to say something that makes them feel virtuous... So what I got was "Run, run, now!" Which, in the real world of my life, would mean losing my job. I could never have replaced it with anything that paid well, so poverty for the rest of my life. Homelessness for who knows how long. Kids pulled out of school, possibly taken away from me. Maybe put into foster care, and hey, I'm sure that would have been fine. Not like every adult I've ever known who went through that doesn't have stories about severe abuse... The reality is, the support structures that are in place in communities are nowhere near as robust and "happily every after, it'll all be fine" as strangers insist, assume, demand to think. And really, they don't care what my life will be like. They don't know me. All they care about is whether I'm listening to them on a forum. Am I doing what they said? If not, I must just love being in my problems. If not, then I deserve to be abused, to die even, for the sake of them being able to smugly say they were right and I was wrong.
Or. They could have said, "God, that sounds awful. I'm here for you if you need to talk. Keep on the path, you can find better and you deserve better." Or if they were actual people in my real life, they could have offered real life support. Material, actual support. But see, ages ago the first time I wanted to leave my ex, I had family who were kinda on the fence about offering me support because the thought is...what does that look like? They wanted to be the virtuous saviors, but they definitely did not want a young pregnant woman with a baby to come and mooch on their couch a while, the real situation of actually offering real help...would have been an imposition. Thing is, everyone wants to say, "If you need anything, just ask"...but everyone is silently adding on, "...but actually, don't."
How much actual real life assistance would you be able and willing to offer to your loved one if/when the time comes and she is ready to take real steps?
What if it's not a quick, one and done heroic act...what if it's months of slogging through putting her life back together? That's a lot. The point here is that when someone gets frustrated that an abused person does not hurry up and slam the door on the problem, implement an instant and drastic fix or change, when it takes time, when it is difficult, when it is complex, you get all impatient and angry that they are not acting... You can say it's because it's a torment watching the situation unfold and that is true, but they are in it in all of the complexities and factors. For them, it isn't simple. If that makes you mad, then that's a you problem. And adding your anger to the weight they are already carrying, is indeed burdening them with your ego, because they don't believe you'd actually be of REAL help if they needed it...you just want to be one who offered. The world is full of that.
And due to the nature of isolating most abusers do, most abused people feel this isolation very keenly. There is no real help being offered by anyone, they are on their own. Even if you mean it, they might not believe you, and that's why I'm trying to get this down, to explain this...every time other people show that they don't understand and let their frustration or anger at the situation show, an abused person reads in the message, "They don't understand. I am on my own here." It reinforces the isolation.
Fortunately most people do give him a wide berth. He is too old to snag an impressionable young adult now, and more mature women can spot his red flags for miles.
I keep trying to say what the purpose is, it's not for outside parties like you or the OP to be doing all of this in depth analyzing of their character, the point is that the abuse victim IS DOING IT. No matter if you think they should or should not, they cannot escape the complicatedness. It is so easy for those on the sidelines to say, "It's simple!" but for those in the situations it isn't, and it won't be. And a third party can either accept that and be supportive to them anyways, or get flustered about it and reinforce their isolation. But don't offer help if you won't accept that they have to move at their own pace and do a ton of processing and it won't be a quick, easy snap-your-fingers solution. If you're only supportive for an easy fix and not doing any actual "work" with the person, you're better off not even being involved. Lest you end up being just one more person who says they want to help, but actually doesn't want to be involved.
It's a lot. I get it that outside people might not want to get too involved, because it IS a lot.
Honestly I was better off not talking about my issues with most people, than arguing in places like forums when I was going through it. I did eventually find people whose support was real, patient, listening, understanding, and meaningful.
I want to be very clear that I am not at all suggesting that my ex's behavior was something I could or should have maybe just put up with, or that it was in any way excusable. I understand that some of the "it's simple, this is abuse, you should leave" comes from the reality that yes, that really is the only ultimate answer. But it did take time and careful action. From the point it started to escalate, it took a year before I found a way to "break up" with him, and about another year after that before I was able to move out. The ultimate answer might be simple but getting to the solution often isn't. And just tossing everything up in the air and running off to a shelter would have dumped me into a disastrous and vulnerable position, more likely to end up back with him, and he might have snapped even more dramatically than he did.
I mean...no one died. No one actually got shot. So my way that so outraged the advice givers, did in fact work in the end.
I agree you have to be deliberate and careful to leave these situations. You don't want to inflame and make things worse.
A lot of people might wonder about your "survivor's guilt" however, you weren't battle buddies even if you were at one time, you were at battle against him in a life threatening situation, even if you were still there. You had to strategize to protect yourself and your children from him, even if he was sometimes or most times a great guy. What he did (still does?), threatening others with guns isn't minor, it's huge even if no one got shot, yet. If it even seems like you minimize that behavior at all yeah most people will not understand or agree, and many of them may have been in the same type of situation with a volatile partner.
I think it does have a lot to do with our own upbringing and childhood, what is tolerable what is normal/acceptable, what is forgivable, etc. I've had men think demonstrable anger like aggressive yelling or throwing things at the wall isn't a problem because they aren't hitting. Their fathers were physically abusive so to them the yelling and aggression is being nicer than what they experienced growing up. Tell them some men don't do any of that and they won't really get it, it's like they think calmness is unmasculine. I think calm, even keeled men are the best and that ability to remain calm and steady in tough situations is a strong masculine trait (not that women aren't that way too).
Violence, fear and chaos just sucks and I just wish the best for anyone who gets stuck in a relationship where they must be vigilant because of an unstable partner, however they have to deal with it.
If I’m not mistaken you said there was never actually any physical abuse. I’m not downplaying other kinds of abuse at all but if their was physical abuse then maybe you would have left much earlier who knows.
But Im not downplaying hard it is to leave.
The line you had about feeling still at times like you left your fellow soldier at war painted a pretty vivid picture for me.
It seems like people abused always carry their deepest connection/bond with their abusers on and off their whole lives which is intense.
No matter how horribly the abused was treated their is still that trauma bond that never fully leaves I guess
Quote:
Originally Posted by tamajane
I agree you have to be deliberate and careful to leave these situations. You don't want to inflame and make things worse.
A lot of people might wonder about your "survivor's guilt" however, you weren't battle buddies even if you were at one time, you were at battle against him in a life threatening situation, even if you were still there. You had to strategize to protect yourself and your children from him, even if he was sometimes or most times a great guy. What he did (still does?), threatening others with guns isn't minor, it's huge even if no one got shot, yet. If it even seems like you minimize that behavior at all yeah most people will not understand or agree, and many of them may have been in the same type of situation with a volatile partner.
I think it does have a lot to do with our own upbringing and childhood, what is tolerable what is normal/acceptable, what is forgivable, etc. I've had men think demonstrable anger like aggressive yelling or throwing things at the wall isn't a problem because they aren't hitting. Their fathers were physically abusive so to them the yelling and aggression is being nicer than what they experienced growing up. Tell them some men don't do any of that and they won't really get it, it's like they think calmness is unmasculine. I think calm, even keeled men are the best and that ability to remain calm and steady in tough situations is a strong masculine trait (not that women aren't that way too).
Violence, fear and chaos just sucks and I just wish the best for anyone who gets stuck in a relationship where they must be vigilant because of an unstable partner, however they have to deal with it.
The survivor's guilt thing... While yes, there was a pattern, I did not find out the really bad stuff from years ago before us, and even early in our relationship (him menacing other dudes I knew, behind my back) until either during or after our breakup. So I got more information later that did help to reinforce my decision to leave and all. But we had 18 years together. Through which we survived homelessness, struggles with employment, six years of him being in the Army during which we were a very strong team, relocations through the mountains in winter, like...really big challenges we battled together and survived together for years, and years. And there were huge sacrifices he made on behalf of me, and of our family. HUGE ones. Including his health, for instance. When things got really bad there at the end, he got out of the military and he was and would be in constant pain for the rest of his life. Physical pain, mental pain, emotional pain.
None of that is an excuse. People on a forum seem to get all flustered like "why are you telling us this?? All we needed to know is he's a bad monster man because he threatened your life! Are you excusing him?" NO I'm not excusing him!
But I cannot fully turn and hate him, either. There are two distinct ideas that I have to find a way to live with, without my brain flying apart at the seams with cognitive dissonance (which frankly I think is a lot of the struggle in these conversations)... He was at times my hero, battle buddy, teammate. He was ALSO my abuser. Both of those things are TRUE things. One doesn't change, negate, erase, or excuse or diminish the other. They both just...are.
I had to leave. And so I left. Once I got 100% clear on the fact that my mentally ill family member was not willing to get help and he was going to do harm to me and our kids, of course I knew that I needed to find a way out. That whole, "I don't care if he was a hero, the moment he..." OK of course you don't care, you weren't the one who walked through hell by his side for half her adult life, I was. And I can't just...cut off the caring and flip it to hatred completely. Doesn't mean he'd ever get a chance to hurt me again. But I do feel sympathy for him, because here I am...in a healthy relationship, with so many good things in my present and future, and his present and future are bleak. He wishes all the time that he had died in Iraq, or that he would go to sleep and never wake. He is suffering and I'm not glad of it. And if he hadn't been suffering and unwell and in so much pain back in 2013-2015, then the escalation in abuse may not have happened. I don't know. We don't get to know such things.
I don't like to see anyone suffer. Maybe this is part of why I was a "target for abuse"...I cannot be a cold or mean person. And that, too, was part of my pathway out and figuring out how to navigate it, I was not going to let the experience change me into someone that I couldn't live with, either. I don't have it in me to be hateful.
The part of me that has compassion for him, that sees that he is a human being and not a monster. That experiences some survivor's guilt here... It isn't any kind of impulse to forgive the unforgivable, excuse the inexcusable, or give him another chance. It's just that I don't believe that any living being should suffer as much as he has, is, and will continue to do. I wish it were not so. Like, in the real world, what this kind of thing means is that when he found a friend of his dead in the camper in the backyard of where he lives, I reached out to former mutual friends and asked if anyone would take him some food because he needed it, but he'd never ask for it. I was like, "I want to ask if anyone can do me this favor, I'll send you money for it if need be, don't tell him it was my idea and don't expect him to thank you...but I would be grateful."
Has nothing, at the end of the day, to do with what kind of person I judge him to be. Has everything to do with the kind of person I WANT TO BE, for my own sake, despite him, despite everything.
I flipped from caring and hurt to apathy toward my abuser. I can say matter-of-fact that his upbringing screwed him up. My upbringing groomed me to be his target. I have no reason to excuse him or call him a monster. We were only together for two years, no kids, and the abuse was still at the shoving stage. I like to practice gratitude and the fact that I cheated my fate by leaving him is usually on that list.
I learned a couple of things from that experience.
1. Never be with someone who exhibits jealousy
2. The opposite of emotion is apathy. ie Love is not the opposite of hate.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
