Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
As one of the posters pointed out, it's WOMEN who dismiss the struggles of unattractive women the most. That's because women are competitive to get the best men. The attractive ones can be really smug. Why should they care about a few unattractive women who are lowest on the totem pole? It doesn't affect them one iota. They are too busy juggling multiple admirers, they don't see the unattractive women on the sidelines trying desperately to fix their acne or weight or get better hairstyles or makeup or clothes to try to look more attractive. So sad.
Lately I've noticed how big breasted women tend to flaunt and display their assets and smugly enjoy how men drool over them whereas smaller built women are overlooked. It's so unfair. This creates a huge disparity between women that really affects another woman's ability to find a relationship. Men don't have to deal with this type of physical disparity to find someone.
Women with large breasts interact with thee world, because the size of their breasts isn't something they can easily change one way or the other. I won't read too much into their intentions beyond that. What I will say is that people who are more attractive more often than not are more self confident because more of their interactions with others have been positive, and rightly or wrongly they get treated better on average.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tamajane
Men who choose women by breast size are not the best men. lol. Most large breasted (or big bootied) women are sexualized and have dealt with some awful behavior from men. A woman who doesn't have those exaggerated features stands a better chance of finding a decent partner, without dealing with the objectifying BS.
Yes if women go out together the most attractive one will get all the attention. She may not notice the others not getting as much attention or if she does she may feel bad about it but what is she supposed to say. But this attention is superficial and generally will not result in anything of any substance. The most beautiful woman I know had lots of boyfriends and took her own life.
Men's interactions around women's breasts are akin to women's interactions around men regarding men's height.Shorter men and less well endowed women resent the other gender for being shallow and unfair and they are both right. That said men's preferences for larger breasts is probably as widespread as women's preferences for tall men. That said Iam not willing to suggest the guys who go for well endowed women are any worse than the women who go for tall men.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fleetiebelle
Some men will really overestimate how much women are performing for the male gaze or are being provocative on purpose. Well-endowed women have a hard enough time finding tops that fit and won't gap and stretch, and they exist in the world as humans whether or not some guys want to gape at their chest.
Well said.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic_Spork
I'm sorry but this whole "women compete with other women for the best men" thing... I can envision it among teenagers in high school, and really poor, uneducated, rough and low class people (not slamming poor people altogether, pointing to some very specific sorts who tend to be part of generations of poverty, and while these do tend to racially segregate in the US, my first mental image was trailer park and not ghetto, so...) Like there are some little social enclaves where I can imagine women hating other women and "competing" for the "best" men. Meaning the best among generally pretty bad options. Immature kids in high school, or...the likely alcoholics and deadbeats around them.
But people who manage to either be fortunate enough to arrive in adulthood in "middle class" or better circumstances, or who climb out of poverty and into such (that would have been me, which is why I'm speaking to this)... Mature and at least moderately successful, intelligent women, do not feel that we are in competition about our breast size or for men. We don't hate each other. There are plenty of men around, if one doesn't like what's under our shirt, another will, and if that's the criteria he's judging on...we probably don't think he's the "best."
I think I might be pointing to living environments in general where people are under a great deal of stress and feel a lot of "survival instinct" as opposed to situations where people/women feel at least SOME sense of security and we can then take a step up the Maslow's pyramid and be more healthy towards each other.
But in a general sense, I've always thought that yeah men do tend to care more about looks than women do, but that doesn't mean that they all care about just one specific measurable metric like breast size, or that there's one way to measure what beauty looks like. Different men have different preferences and some are more particular than others.
I acknowledge that some women really resent the male gaze and any type of sexualized attention. I would say an even even larger group is more bemused/amused than necessarily annoyed by it.
But I think women have a more complicated relationship with the male gaze than you are acknowledging.I agree most women aren't competing most of the time for the male gaze but a surprising number of women are competing against other women some of the time for the male gaze. In ways that men notice and women downplay. Have you been to a nightclub and seen the women in club wear? Think about all of the women who have gotten plastic surgery or wonderbras.I know the discourse among women regarding plastic surgery is they should do it for themselves to make themselves feel better about their self. But the specific mechanism that occurs is often the highly sexualized attention that they get from men from having plastic surgery is what makes them feel better about themselves.I dated a woman who told me that she didn't get implants twice for guys to ignore her chest. This woman was an actuary, she wasn't dumb nor uneducated. But she resented when she was she was this mousy asian woman in college who ignored by men in college, so after she got a job and money she got better clothes, better makeup, spent a lot of time in the gym and got plastic surgery to change how guys perceived her.
I realize not all women are competing against other women sexually and I also acknowledge that women downplay it amongst themselves. But a lot of women really do want to the male glaze even when they don't want to acknowledge that to other women. Go date a woman just out of a long term relationship with a dead bedroom.A big chunk of what she is looking for is male lust.. She wants to be wanted.
Padded bras are a must, otherwise I look like a double masectomy patient and tops just don't fit nicely.
I’m consistently surprised by the unnecessary, insensitive and/or harsh words by some women, particularly while simultaneously claiming we (men) dismiss the struggles of unattractive women, as a whole. Unattractive can be relative to personality/attitude as well (or a lack of empathy/compassion); after all, this is a psychology forum. In other words, it’s often warranted (regarding physically attractive women also). Bottom line, OP needs to rely on (improving) her own psychological health relative to such (rather than attempting to control the narrative re: men).
That said, my ex-girlfriend had a mastectomy (and reconstructive surgery) in her thirties; she is as beautiful (and healthy) as ever at 40. My mom, however, died of breast cancer. What’s the point of your comment/comparison here? (There’s another thread relative to this i.e. those who attempt to compare themselves favorably in order to feel better about themselves).
Last edited by CorporateCowboy; 08-28-2023 at 10:02 AM..
One of my husband's business partners sent some crude things to him about women's bodies. This guy is supposed to be a professional and is in his early sixties. My husband is NOT like that, he was deflecting the conversation to other things. Apparently the guy does it with everybody, but of course in a "funny joking" way. I just think it's gross. He's even pushed the line with me. I get it with young immature men but it's just creepy when older men go there, at least when it is uninvited.
It's like some men are chronically obsessed with women's bodies. I do know a bisexual woman who is kind of like that too. Always talking about breasts, got implants herself and always making comments about breasts. I don't get it, I really don't. I don't think I'm stuck on any particular aesthetic, in my lifetime I've been attracted to a wide variety of people with very different physical characteristics.
Yeah, and that is trashy behavior isn't it? Disrespectful of boundaries and social conventions, perfectly willing to be crude enough to make others uncomfortable... He sure as heck ain't a "best guy" and I don't give a crap how tall he is! lol
I also roll my eyes at the idea of a bunch of professional women who are all average to hot, getting all "mean girls" at one another because they feel like they are competing for some small selection of "best men"... I just don't see it, and I don't buy it. There are plenty of men out there. And what men think makes them the "best" isn't going to be the factor that matters most to all or most women, either. Some women like a tall dude. Some like a funny dude. Some don't even like dudes at all. All this statistical analysis and game theory about who finds what attractive seriously feels like the obsession of people who spend too much time online and need to go interact with real humans more and see the vast variety of what is really out there. Perhaps even travel outside of a small social bubble they find themselves in, I dunno.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OscarNiemeyer
Women with large breasts interact with thee world, because the size of their breasts isn't something they can easily change one way or the other. I won't read too much into their intentions beyond that. What I will say is that people who are more attractive more often than not are more self confident because more of their interactions with others have been positive, and rightly or wrongly they get treated better on average.
Men's interactions around women's breasts are akin to women's interactions around men regarding men's height.Shorter men and less well endowed women resent the other gender for being shallow and unfair and they are both right. That said men's preferences for larger breasts is probably as widespread as women's preferences for tall men. That said Iam not willing to suggest the guys who go for well endowed women are any worse than the women who go for tall men.
Well said.
I acknowledge that some women really resent the male gaze and any type of sexualized attention. I would say an even even larger group is more bemused/amused than necessarily annoyed by it.
But I think women have a more complicated relationship with the male gaze than you are acknowledging.I agree most women aren't competing most of the time for the male gaze but a surprising number of women are competing against other women some of the time for the male gaze. In ways that men notice and women downplay. Have you been to a nightclub and seen the women in club wear? Think about all of the women who have gotten plastic surgery or wonderbras.I know the discourse among women regarding plastic surgery is they should do it for themselves to make themselves feel better about their self. But the specific mechanism that occurs is often the highly sexualized attention that they get from men from having plastic surgery is what makes them feel better about themselves.I dated a woman who told me that she didn't get implants twice for guys to ignore her chest. This woman was an actuary, she wasn't dumb nor uneducated. But she resented when she was she was this mousy asian woman in college who ignored by men in college, so after she got a job and money she got better clothes, better makeup, spent a lot of time in the gym and got plastic surgery to change how guys perceived her.
I realize not all women are competing against other women sexually and I also acknowledge that women downplay it amongst themselves. But a lot of women really do want to the male glaze even when they don't want to acknowledge that to other women. Go date a woman just out of a long term relationship with a dead bedroom.A big chunk of what she is looking for is male lust.. She wants to be wanted.
Yes, it IS enjoyable to feel "sexy" and desirable. I don't dispute that. But there are a lot of possible ways to feel that, and breast size is hardly the end all/be all of it. I have known plenty of men who are apathetic or even turned off by large breasts. And if you were to go talk to a cosmetic surgeon (I have) they will tell you that the #1 reason why women get breast implants is to RESTORE their breasts to something more like they were at a younger age, not to just "make 'em big." That could be because of cancer, or aging, or as in my own case, breastfeeding two infants in my young adulthood. Mine diminished in size due to that, and I HAVE considered getting implants to restore them...mostly because as other women here will tell you, I don't like the way that a lot of clothing fits me.
It isn't really about getting more "male gaze" (or "glaze" - funny typo there) it's about what I see when I look in the mirror. And what is in my head about what society tells and shows us looks optimal or not. And I decided against implants because my husband said that while he would certainly respect and support anything I wanted to do, he prefers "natural," and he loves how my body looks and feels. And I still get plenty of "gaze" and attention at the parties we go to, so it's not just him being nice. I'm no supermodel, but I figure I'm alright. Overall.
I think that no matter the pleasure of getting others looking at us, it ALL starts in the mirror at home. One of the sexiest women I know drives herself to tears trying to figure out a look for a night out. She tries on outfit after outfit, even though I quote a male friend who said, "I think that when people sign up as members to this club, we get issued a crush on <my sexy female bff> right along with our membership cards." She's the kind of woman who, you could ask a hundred people who know her who is the hottest woman they personally know and her name will be spoken by at least half or better. And she practically destroys herself with stress and anxiety over how she looks before she goes out, convinces herself she doesn't even want to go and that she is ugly, and has to be talked off a ledge about it. She's got implants, by the way. And she regrets it because she thinks it makes her seem "vain and superficial."
Oh and to the women complaining about swimsuits...preach, ladies! Preach it! You know what is a special kind of hell? Trying on swimsuits in a Walmart dressing room. You have to leave your underwear on because who trusts that weird little mangled sticker in the crotch, you have to try them on because if you don't you're very likely to waste your money...and the lighting is nightmarish at best. No one looks good in the lighting in a Walmart changing room. No one.
I realize not all women are competing against other women sexually and I also acknowledge that women downplay it amongst themselves. But a lot of women really do want to the male glaze even when they don't want to acknowledge that to other women. Go date a woman just out of a long term relationship with a dead bedroom.A big chunk of what she is looking for is male lust.. She wants to be wanted.
When you talk about women in situations like dating and nightclubs, then sure, their desire to be admired and appreciated is going to be a lot greater than I think the situations that a lot us are referring to. At work, on the bus, at the garden center; those are situations where being looked at by men is not a woman's primary priority and is not really going to affect what she wears and how she carries herself and how she relates to other women.
It also feels like a bit of a male fantasy that women are all catty and jealous and will rip each other's eyes out over a man. Not that that's never happened, but I have such a circle of kind, thoughtful, and supportive women around me that notion that most women are so competitive and can't get along is some ridiculousness.
Last edited by fleetiebelle; 08-28-2023 at 10:43 AM..
When you talk about women in situations like dating and nightclubs, then sure, their desire to be admired and appreciated is going to be a lot greater than I think the situations that a lot us are referring to. At work, on the bus, at the garden center; those are situations where being looked at by men is not a woman's primary priority and is not really going to affect what she wears and how she carries herself and how she relates to other women.
It also feels like a bit of a male fantasy that women are all catty and jealous and will rip each other's eyes out over a man. Not that that's never happened, but I have such a circle of kind, thoughtful, and supportive women around me that notion that most women are so competitive and can't get along is some ridiculousness.
I wonder if the idea is something they get in school and then they don't realize that most women grow up and out of that foolishness if they ever engaged in it in the first place?
I mean, what grown men go around shoving one another into lockers and demanding their pocket change and giving each other wedgies? Or is this idea perhaps projection because men can have a somewhat more competitive and hierarchical mindset? I wonder.
Bullying (and catty) behavior in young people, in school environments where we have little control over who we've got to be around all day every day...that's more like prison than it is normal adult life around normal people.
Sure there are some immature drama-mongers and bully cads out there in the wild but most sensible folks avoid them, right? I know I do.
Yes, it IS enjoyable to feel "sexy" and desirable. I don't dispute that. But there are a lot of possible ways to feel that, and breast size is hardly the end all/be all of it. I have known plenty of men who are apathetic or even turned off by large breasts. And if you were to go talk to a cosmetic surgeon (I have) they will tell you that the #1 reason why women get breast implants is to RESTORE their breasts to something more like they were at a younger age, not to just "make 'em big." That could be because of cancer, or aging, or as in my own case, breastfeeding two infants in my young adulthood. Mine diminished in size due to that, and I HAVE considered getting implants to restore them...mostly because as other women here will tell you, I don't like the way that a lot of clothing fits me.
It isn't really about getting more "male gaze" (or "glaze" - funny typo there) it's about what I see when I look in the mirror. And what is in my head about what society tells and shows us looks optimal or not. And I decided against implants because my husband said that while he would certainly respect and support anything I wanted to do, he prefers "natural," and he loves how my body looks and feels. And I still get plenty of "gaze" and attention at the parties we go to, so it's not just him being nice. I'm no supermodel, but I figure I'm alright. Overall.
I think that no matter the pleasure of getting others looking at us, it ALL starts in the mirror at home. One of the sexiest women I know drives herself to tears trying to figure out a look for a night out. She tries on outfit after outfit, even though I quote a male friend who said, "I think that when people sign up as members to this club, we get issued a crush on <my sexy female bff> right along with our membership cards." She's the kind of woman who, you could ask a hundred people who know her who is the hottest woman they personally know and her name will be spoken by at least half or better. And she practically destroys herself with stress and anxiety over how she looks before she goes out, convinces herself she doesn't even want to go and that she is ugly, and has to be talked off a ledge about it. She's got implants, by the way. And she regrets it because she thinks it makes her seem "vain and superficial."
I suspect the story women tell other women is different from the story women tell men about their motivations for getting plastic surgery. I think women talk in generalities about feeling better about how they look in clothing and feeling more comfortable with respect to their body makes them seem less threatening and less competitive to other women. I think it also it protects them from blowback from the women who really resent being sexually objectified. I also have no doubt that some women are being sincere when they voice these motivations. But I don't think all women or even a majority of women are motivated solely by looking better in clothes. I think a much bigger motivation is wanting to be more sexually desirable.
There is a more natural looking formed implant and a more rounded fuller implant, I know this because I have dated multiple women with implants and they broke down the ins and the outs of the process but almost all of the women choose the rounded ones because they weren't looking for something real natural, they wanted the fantasy. The actuary thought the rounded implants looked more like the anime aesthetic she was looking for.
Sonic you may be a lot more accepting of your body and I applaud that. But I have dated women who when other women complained about being objectified treated those complaints as a humble brag. This is the aspect of women's insecurities that they sometimes hide from other women, but reveal to men.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fleetiebelle
When you talk about women in situations like dating and nightclubs, then sure, their desire to be admired and appreciated is going to be a lot greater than I think the situations that a lot us are referring to. At work, on the bus, at the garden center; those are situations where being looked at by men is not a woman's primary priority and is not really going to affect what she wears and how she carries herself and how she relates to other women.
It also feels like a bit of a male fantasy that women are all catty and jealous and will rip each other's eyes out over a man. Not that that's never happened, but I have such a circle of kind, thoughtful, and supportive women around me that notion that most women are so competitive and can't get along is some ridiculousness.
I agree that the competitive aspects of women are more pronounced in dating and in dating environment s like nightclubs. I also acknowledge that for women at work and at the garden center most women don't want to be objectified most of the time by most men. I also further acknowledge some men do want to make women seem more catty than they actually are. I completely acknowledge that some women really aren't catty at all and couldn't be bothered with this stuff but there is also a large enough contingent of women who really are this way. I will also say some women really are getting work done because they want to want to be objectified.
That said, my ex-girlfriend had a mastectomy (and reconstructive surgery) in her thirties; she is as beautiful (and healthy) as ever at 40. My mom, however, died of breast cancer. What’s the point of your comment/comparison here? (There’s another thread relative to this i.e. those who attempt to compare themselves favorably in order to feel better about themselves).
I'm not sure what your point is either. My comment wasn't specifically directed toward breast cancer victims, I was just illustrating that without a padded bra that's how flat chested I look. And I don't have nearly enough confidence to just be "loud and proud" about it. I was teased relentlessly as a teen, not surprising there, most of us were for one thing or another. But as an adult I've gotten plenty of hurtful or rude remarks from adults, mostly men but also women, because of small boobs.
And yes, trying on swimsuits is a fricken nightmare! I haven't bought a new one in at least 4 years because the fitting process is too traumatizing. Men aren't going to understand this - they just pull on a pair of shorts and they're done.
And yes, trying on swimsuits is a fricken nightmare! I haven't bought a new one in at least 4 years because the fitting process is too traumatizing. Men aren't going to understand this - they just pull on a pair of shorts and they're done.
You’re right; as a man, I don’t understand this. It’s as if the thread has lost sight of the fact attraction is a two-way street (women give us attention as well), and it extends beyond one’s appearance. In other words, you sound as though you’re being dismissive of yourself and/or causing your own struggle (much like the OP).
Quote:
Originally Posted by OscarNiemeyer
I acknowledge that some women really resent the male gaze and any type of sexualized attention.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OscarNiemeyer
But I think women have a more complicated relationship with the male gaze than you are acknowledging.I agree most women aren't competing most of the time for the male gaze but a surprising number of women are competing against other women some of the time for the male gaze.
Too funny; how many times can you use the term ‘male gaze’ in one post? Obviously, not all attention has its origin in such; in other words, there’s a huge difference between what you’re bizarrely describing vs. attention relative to (potential) relationships or likability/social situations (which men and women enjoy).
That said, it’s human nature to want to be (perceived as) attractive relative to one’s physical appearance; point being, it’s also desirable to be thought of as attractive relative to personality and character as well, although it depends on the maturity of the folks involved (and what each brings to the table, so to speak).
The core of authenticity is the courage to be imperfect, vulnerable, and to set boundaries.
I agree; yet, surprisingly, many women are blaming their insecurities and imperfections on us (as if it’s a man’s fault as to what we do/don’t find attractive - or worse, believing it’s the same for all).
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
