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I just squeaked out a LTR where I was isolated in sooooo many ways. My neighbors honestly thought I was deaf.
Sometimes you don't see the horror pit you've fallen into until someone outside of it points it out to you................
To answer OPs question, predatory people are good at picking out victims. They read body language, they cozy up to vunerable people and "lovebomb" them.
Trust me there are plenty of "lovely dovey" looking couples who are not so happy behind closed doors.
The classic saying is a wolf in sheep's clothing.....It is that simple.
Gotcha. Also she was molested as a kid by an uncle her grandfather masturbated in front of her she was also hit at times.
You see and hear alot that in abusive relationships the abuser will isolate the person hes abusing from friends and sometimes family.
I always wonder how in the world the abuser convinces the person they’re abusing to agree to this?
Even in a non abusive relationship it’s a crazy thing to bring up to someone and have them agree to it but how does someone who’s being abused/mistreated agree to isolating themselves from people they love while deciding to only be around the person who’s abusing them?
Because they are manipulated. Also, they are threatened into silence. Sometimes the abuser threatens their children, and their parents if they say anything. They know from experience they will be beaten half to death. FEAR.
Why can someone be so willing to isolate themselves from family and friends? It is a subtle yet steady form of manipulation and control. I have seen strong, confident, successful women succumb to this from their husbands. And some will remain in a marriage with this person.
I am not going to sit here and dish over my abusive first marriage (again) because I've said it all before and I'm honestly tired of the subject.
I'm going to propose a new theory, thought, take on this...and OP you might not like it. I am not trying to be insulting to you, I swear, but I am trying to encourage you to ponder this in a different light.
What we know is that you think about your sister (it's your sister, right? If I recall from your other previous threads on this?) and her relationship A LOT. And you have some struggles of your own in your love life, and you're feeling lonely.
I have told you before I think, that a woman in an abusive relationship (if this one really is, and I'll take you at face value that it is) has to hit her own place of readiness before she will try to leave. She may have to hit "rock bottom" or something, to tip the scales to where the unknown is more appealing than the situation she finds familiar. Because sometimes realistically it is not a guarantee that life away from the abuser will actually be better. I have seen woman go out of the frying pan and into the fire. Sometimes there is no way to know. If the man you are with is good to you 95% of the time, and terrible 5% of the time, but you did not feel that your actual life was in peril, like he lost it for a moment but you did not think he'd kill you.... How do you know that leaving him won't put you in the path of someone or something worse? You don't know. And the longer a woman is in a relationship like this, the more she has no idea what her "options" in dating might even be, or if she COULD get someone better. It's a lot of unknown and uncertainty.
So she won't leave until she is ready to leave.
But there are people who sort of demand that a person revolve their life around their issues and emotional needs and stuff, and it often creates this codependent dynamic. The sort of person who does that, does indeed try to alienate them from others in their life. They look for things about those others that they can use to paint them as bad people.
And someone who had a person (or multiple people) in their family of origin who did that, would be programmed to accept it from others.
Which brings me to this... (Sorry. I expect you to feel defensive about this. You don't have to reply, I totally acknowledge I might be fully off base here, but I'd ask you to think about it at least.)
You seem to be very all up in your sister's business, and very demanding about her having frequent contact with you and you repeatedly post about this situation in ways that come off honestly kind of strange. Asking the same questions over and over. Even when you seem to understand people's replies, you appear to need some sort of validation that her husband/partner is a bad person and you are right to be very concerned and all of this, over and over.
That you are totally in the right, that she should totally leave him, and that she should definitely...what...be in frequent contact with you?
Whether her marriage is abusive, codependent, or just complicated, it does seem like she has her hands full with her life. She might not also have the energy to engage with you. And she might have not one, but two men in her life, trying to convince her about who she should be cutting out and who she should devote her attention to, not to mention that a person's susceptibility to accept unhealthy relationship dynamics often has connections to what they learned to tolerate in their family of origin, of which you sir are a part.
If she needs your involvement, she'll let you know. If she finds herself ready to leave her husband and needs your help or support, she knows where to find you. She is a grown adult who can make her own choices, which she is doing, no matter what you think of them. Only she can decide if her marriage is really an abusive one and she truly should leave, and she will do that in her own time if at all, and it's just not your place to try and be involved in her choices. Not to mention it isn't going to accomplish what you might wish, it'll probably just cause her more stress. And believe it or not, a lot of women withdraw from other family and focus on their husbands and/or kids in adulthood.
She does not actually have to be available for you at all times.
It might not even be her husband making this decision, he may or may not even be influencing it. It could simply be that providing emotional labor to her marriage AND to her brother, is more than she wants to deal with...but telling you that honestly may be too uncomfortable. Given the likelihood that you may feel defensive about it. Last thing she may want is to have to manage your feelings and start a kerfuffle by telling you to back off, and that might also feel unkind since you seem to be coping with some loneliness and may not have anyone else to lean on.
Just another angle to contemplate. If it's totally off, it's totally off...I don't know your or your family.
But the more you post about this, the more it really seems to me that you are using "concern" about her safety as cover for your need for her time and attention and energy. Maybe you could focus on getting out and seeking some social contacts and emotional support people, perhaps some dating prospects. Remember. If she needs you...she knows where to reach you.
I am not going to sit here and dish over my abusive first marriage (again) because I've said it all before and I'm honestly tired of the subject.
I'm going to propose a new theory, thought, take on this...and OP you might not like it. I am not trying to be insulting to you, I swear, but I am trying to encourage you to ponder this in a different light.
What we know is that you think about your sister (it's your sister, right? If I recall from your other previous threads on this?) and her relationship A LOT. And you have some struggles of your own in your love life, and you're feeling lonely.
I have told you before I think, that a woman in an abusive relationship (if this one really is, and I'll take you at face value that it is) has to hit her own place of readiness before she will try to leave. She may have to hit "rock bottom" or something, to tip the scales to where the unknown is more appealing than the situation she finds familiar. Because sometimes realistically it is not a guarantee that life away from the abuser will actually be better. I have seen woman go out of the frying pan and into the fire. Sometimes there is no way to know. If the man you are with is good to you 95% of the time, and terrible 5% of the time, but you did not feel that your actual life was in peril, like he lost it for a moment but you did not think he'd kill you.... How do you know that leaving him won't put you in the path of someone or something worse? You don't know. And the longer a woman is in a relationship like this, the more she has no idea what her "options" in dating might even be, or if she COULD get someone better. It's a lot of unknown and uncertainty.
So she won't leave until she is ready to leave.
But there are people who sort of demand that a person revolve their life around their issues and emotional needs and stuff, and it often creates this codependent dynamic. The sort of person who does that, does indeed try to alienate them from others in their life. They look for things about those others that they can use to paint them as bad people.
And someone who had a person (or multiple people) in their family of origin who did that, would be programmed to accept it from others.
Which brings me to this... (Sorry. I expect you to feel defensive about this. You don't have to reply, I totally acknowledge I might be fully off base here, but I'd ask you to think about it at least.)
You seem to be very all up in your sister's business, and very demanding about her having frequent contact with you and you repeatedly post about this situation in ways that come off honestly kind of strange. Asking the same questions over and over. Even when you seem to understand people's replies, you appear to need some sort of validation that her husband/partner is a bad person and you are right to be very concerned and all of this, over and over.
That you are totally in the right, that she should totally leave him, and that she should definitely...what...be in frequent contact with you?
Whether her marriage is abusive, codependent, or just complicated, it does seem like she has her hands full with her life. She might not also have the energy to engage with you. And she might have not one, but two men in her life, trying to convince her about who she should be cutting out and who she should devote her attention to, not to mention that a person's susceptibility to accept unhealthy relationship dynamics often has connections to what they learned to tolerate in their family of origin, of which you sir are a part.
If she needs your involvement, she'll let you know. If she finds herself ready to leave her husband and needs your help or support, she knows where to find you. She is a grown adult who can make her own choices, which she is doing, no matter what you think of them. Only she can decide if her marriage is really an abusive one and she truly should leave, and she will do that in her own time if at all, and it's just not your place to try and be involved in her choices. Not to mention it isn't going to accomplish what you might wish, it'll probably just cause her more stress. And believe it or not, a lot of women withdraw from other family and focus on their husbands and/or kids in adulthood.
She does not actually have to be available for you at all times.
It might not even be her husband making this decision, he may or may not even be influencing it. It could simply be that providing emotional labor to her marriage AND to her brother, is more than she wants to deal with...but telling you that honestly may be too uncomfortable. Given the likelihood that you may feel defensive about it. Last thing she may want is to have to manage your feelings and start a kerfuffle by telling you to back off, and that might also feel unkind since you seem to be coping with some loneliness and may not have anyone else to lean on.
Just another angle to contemplate. If it's totally off, it's totally off...I don't know your or your family.
But the more you post about this, the more it really seems to me that you are using "concern" about her safety as cover for your need for her time and attention and energy. Maybe you could focus on getting out and seeking some social contacts and emotional support people, perhaps some dating prospects. Remember. If she needs you...she knows where to reach you.
You’re right iam offended and you couldn’t be more off base.
I’m not someone who’s constantly hounding her I don’t contact her all the time at all.
I simply am worried about my sister someone I care and love for.
Not to offend you but I don’t think you get that.
Seeing your posts and how you talk about your loved ones including your sons you seem like a very detached human being.
Being loyal and protective of loved ones seems foreign to you.
I could be way off base just an angle to contemplate
You’re right iam offended and you couldn’t be more off base.
I’m not someone who’s constantly hounding her I don’t contact her all the time at all.
I simply am worried about my sister someone I care and love for.
Not to offend you but I don’t think you get that.
Seeing your posts and how you talk about your loved ones including your sons you seem like a very detached human being.
Being loyal and protective of loved ones seems foreign to you.
I could be way off base just an angle to contemplate
I think I mentioned twice that I am OK with being wrong, and I don't know you or your family.
I also expected a defensive reaction.
But even if your intentions are the very best possible intentions and your feelings only care and concern and protectiveness, she very well may decide that staying in frequent contact with you is more than she wants to manage, if only because her relationship may be very demanding on her emotional energy.
And what I said about only she being able to decide when and if she's done and wants to walk away from it, still stands. No one can make that decision for another person. No matter how much they care.
You started this thread. I am not going to derail it talking about my feelings towards my family. I don't hold it against you as a defensive reaction though, and I am not offended. You don't know me or them any more than I know you or yours.
I do hope that your sister is OK. But here's a question, how would you feel if she really is OK? OK and perhaps even happy? I mean what if. What if the incident that turned you forever against her husband, that you cannot forgive, was in fact an isolated thing and not really something happening anymore and what if she decided to forgive? How would that make you feel?
I am not defending her guy, I know that I still don't know much about these people and I know that it's rare for an abusive person to only be like that once. Good chance that you are right and she would be better off without the dude. But it's not your decision to make, you can't control other people, not even from a place of love and protectiveness.
I think I mentioned twice that I am OK with being wrong, and I don't know you or your family.
I also expected a defensive reaction.
But even if your intentions are the very best possible intentions and your feelings only care and concern and protectiveness, she very well may decide that staying in frequent contact with you is more than she wants to manage, if only because her relationship may be very demanding on her emotional energy.
And what I said about only she being able to decide when and if she's done and wants to walk away from it, still stands. No one can make that decision for another person. No matter how much they care.
You started this thread. I am not going to derail it talking about my feelings towards my family. I don't hold it against you as a defensive reaction though, and I am not offended. You don't know me or them any more than I know you or yours.
I do hope that your sister is OK. But here's a question, how would you feel if she really is OK? OK and perhaps even happy? I mean what if. What if the incident that turned you forever against her husband, that you cannot forgive, was in fact an isolated thing and not really something happening anymore and what if she decided to forgive? How would that make you feel?
I am not defending her guy, I know that I still don't know much about these people and I know that it's rare for an abusive person to only be like that once. Good chance that you are right and she would be better off without the dude. But it's not your decision to make, you can't control other people, not even from a place of love and protectiveness.
Not even if you are right.
He beat the crap out of her and my niece at least once that I know of (and I may have never found out about that if it wasn’t for me calling her about something else while she was staying at a hotel away from him) and seeing how abusive relationships go I’m guessing that probably wasn’t the only time. Even it was that means it can still happen again and maybe worse next time
So no even if it somehow was “isolated” that is something so deplorable I will never forgive
We had an argument about this before where you put all “mistakes” iso to you beating the crap out of them and their child and something much less major and dangerous then that is the same exact thing.. a mistake they can be forgiven.
He’s also clearly isolating her from people.
So I don’t know on what planet where that is good or healthy regardless if she’s “happy”
You using the word “obsess” over my sisters abuse is very odd. It’s a loved one of course I’m “obsessed” with her safety. Would you say the same thing if you had a daughter who was getting abused?
Bottom line is for whatever reason you don’t really like to make a big deal out of abuse it isn’t something that gets you angry or your blood boiling. Maybe it’s from your upbringing or maybe you just don’t want to feel like a victim.
I and most other do when we see it happen to anyone especially a loved one.
Most people reactions to a loved one in danger isn’t *shrug*
He beat the crap out of her and my niece at least once that I know of (and I may have never found out about that if it wasn’t for me calling her about something else while she was staying at a hotel away from him) and seeing how abusive relationships go I’m guessing that probably wasn’t the only time. Even it was that means it can still happen again and maybe worse next time
So no even if it somehow was “isolated” that is something so deplorable I will never forgive
We had an argument about this before where you put all “mistakes” iso to you beating the crap out of them and their child and something much less major and dangerous then that is the same exact thing.. a mistake they can be forgiven.
He’s also clearly isolating her from people.
So I don’t know on what planet where that is good or healthy regardless if she’s “happy”
You using the word “obsess” over my sisters abuse is very odd. It’s a loved one of course I’m “obsessed” with her safety. Would you say the same thing if you had a daughter who was getting abused?
Bottom line is for whatever reason you don’t really like to make a big deal out of abuse it isn’t something that gets you angry or your blood boiling. Maybe it’s from your upbringing or maybe you just don’t want to feel like a victim.
I and most other do when we see it happen to anyone especially a loved one.
Most people reactions to a loved one in danger isn’t *shrug*
I'm not saying it isn't a big deal. Or to shrug about it.
I'm saying, because I have personal experience with it, that NO ONE other than the abused person can make the choice to change their situation. Now it is valuable, even vital, that they have a support network ready to spring into action and be solidly and materially there for them if/when they reach that point. But until they do, there isn't much at all that anyone can do about it.
It sucks. It sucks all day and twice on Sundays man. I know that all too well. But at some point, I just wonder...how much of this, meaning this here you posting about this over and over, getting others to share their experiences, all of this here...what is it doing for her? Anything? Have you gotten any tools with which to really help her, through these threads? Is it about you or about her? How would she feel if she read them, if she knew you were talking about her life here?
I mean, I guess it's valid that you are perhaps seeking support for your own pain and stress in knowing about a situation that has you really worried but not having much power to do anything about it. People do that here, it makes sense. It just seems like no matter how many times abuse victims explain it to you, you have a hard time having empathy over frustration that she isn't making the choices you want her to make. Talking about her being molested as a kid and such, I mean...would she want you sharing that on the internet? Don't let your frustrations make you unkind. You can't control her, only you.
How does it help her for your blood to be boiling? For you to be very much in your reactions? Sometimes the hardest thing in the world is to step outside of our own outrage to be genuinely there for someone in a way that is useful or valuable to them. If she feels like she cannot confide in your without your blood boiling and you demanding to know why she doesn't leave or why a person puts up with this and all of this righteous feeling you have...that will trigger a defensive feeling within her (right or wrong) and cause her to self-isolate. The mission she's undertaking in the present is one of coping, whether anyone likes it or not, it is her life and her choice. And even if he does not isolate her (and he probably is) she will become complicit in her own isolation if she feels that someone outside "doesn't get it" or makes her coping strategy feel worse or more difficult.
I am dead serious with you right now when I say that the one thing that someone COULD have done, that no one ever did, that might have persuaded me to try and leave my abuser before we hit rock bottom, is if anyone had ever said, "Look if you ever need to leave, you can bring your kids and come stay with me. I'll be there for you, I'll help you get a new start." But that is a lot to ask of anyone, I don't blame people that no one offered that... But if anyone said, "Leave him!" then my thought would have been, "And go where? Are you going to help me and my kids avoid being homeless? No? Thought not. Are you going to protect me from his retaliation? Of course you won't. Got any real solutions to my real problems if I were to try that? Not just phone numbers to crisis support that don't answer or call you back, because uh yeah, I've tried...? Nope." All anyone had to offer was righteous ego driven advice that took nothing of reality into account. Everyone wants to tell you what to do, no one wants to help you do it. So. I was on my own. Isolated, because the truth is uncomfortable and the answers aren't easy. So only when I could be 100% sure that whatever I was walking into when I left, wasn't worse than what I was leaving, because it got consistently THAT BAD...did I finally make a move.
My family members were angry, too. Some later told me that they'd had conversations fantasizing about "taking him out." Yet not a single one ever said, "look if you ever need to leave, come to me. I got you. If you just need to talk, call me. I'm here." It's real easy to be angry and to make noise, to say why doesn't she leave. Damn hard to be part of the solution.
And what I think bears consideration for you, is why is it that you had to find out about her getting hurt by being the one to call her...why didn't she call you in her time of need? And when you did find out, what was more important to you in that moment? Your boiling blood or her feelings and needs? Your reactions end up being just another thing for her to manage, and that does. not. help. her. Do you want to help her or just be validated in your righteousness?
You have told us a lot here, and it came very quick to you, to speak about your feelings. But when it comes to how she might feel, you keep asking us, strangers on the internet, to explain it to you, to make sense of her thoughts and motivations, telling us about her childhood trauma as though it were a set of dry facts out of a book or something. Being supportive to someone in a way that helps them feel safe changing their situation (which by the way is a highly risky move, an abuse victim's life is in the most danger when they are trying to leave an abuser) actually means engaging with their emotions first and foremost, not your own. It takes empathy and respect. Not anger and blame and ego.
It isn't *shrug*...it's the fact that if you are not calm and steady, she won't see you as a safe harbor to come to if she ever decides she's ready for one.
I'm not saying it isn't a big deal. Or to shrug about it.
I'm saying, because I have personal experience with it, that NO ONE other than the abused person can make the choice to change their situation. Now it is valuable, even vital, that they have a support network ready to spring into action and be solidly and materially there for them if/when they reach that point. But until they do, there isn't much at all that anyone can do about it.
It sucks. It sucks all day and twice on Sundays man. I know that all too well. But at some point, I just wonder...how much of this, meaning this here you posting about this over and over, getting others to share their experiences, all of this here...what is it doing for her? Anything? Have you gotten any tools with which to really help her, through these threads? Is it about you or about her? How would she feel if she read them, if she knew you were talking about her life here?
I mean, I guess it's valid that you are perhaps seeking support for your own pain and stress in knowing about a situation that has you really worried but not having much power to do anything about it. People do that here, it makes sense. It just seems like no matter how many times abuse victims explain it to you, you have a hard time having empathy over frustration that she isn't making the choices you want her to make. Talking about her being molested as a kid and such, I mean...would she want you sharing that on the internet? Don't let your frustrations make you unkind. You can't control her, only you.
How does it help her for your blood to be boiling? For you to be very much in your reactions? Sometimes the hardest thing in the world is to step outside of our own outrage to be genuinely there for someone in a way that is useful or valuable to them. If she feels like she cannot confide in your without your blood boiling and you demanding to know why she doesn't leave or why a person puts up with this and all of this righteous feeling you have...that will trigger a defensive feeling within her (right or wrong) and cause her to self-isolate. The mission she's undertaking in the present is one of coping, whether anyone likes it or not, it is her life and her choice. And even if he does not isolate her (and he probably is) she will become complicit in her own isolation if she feels that someone outside "doesn't get it" or makes her coping strategy feel worse or more difficult.
I am dead serious with you right now when I say that the one thing that someone COULD have done, that no one ever did, that might have persuaded me to try and leave my abuser before we hit rock bottom, is if anyone had ever said, "Look if you ever need to leave, you can bring your kids and come stay with me. I'll be there for you, I'll help you get a new start." But that is a lot to ask of anyone, I don't blame people that no one offered that... But if anyone said, "Leave him!" then my thought would have been, "And go where? Are you going to help me and my kids avoid being homeless? No? Thought not. Are you going to protect me from his retaliation? Of course you won't. Got any real solutions to my real problems if I were to try that? Not just phone numbers to crisis support that don't answer or call you back, because uh yeah, I've tried...? Nope." All anyone had to offer was righteous ego driven advice that took nothing of reality into account. Everyone wants to tell you what to do, no one wants to help you do it. So. I was on my own. Isolated, because the truth is uncomfortable and the answers aren't easy. So only when I could be 100% sure that whatever I was walking into when I left, wasn't worse than what I was leaving, because it got consistently THAT BAD...did I finally make a move.
My family members were angry, too. Some later told me that they'd had conversations fantasizing about "taking him out." Yet not a single one ever said, "look if you ever need to leave, come to me. I got you. If you just need to talk, call me. I'm here." It's real easy to be angry and to make noise, to say why doesn't she leave. Damn hard to be part of the solution.
And what I think bears consideration for you, is why is it that you had to find out about her getting hurt by being the one to call her...why didn't she call you in her time of need? And when you did find out, what was more important to you in that moment? Your boiling blood or her feelings and needs? Your reactions end up being just another thing for her to manage, and that does. not. help. her. Do you want to help her or just be validated in your righteousness?
You have told us a lot here, and it came very quick to you, to speak about your feelings. But when it comes to how she might feel, you keep asking us, strangers on the internet, to explain it to you, to make sense of her thoughts and motivations, telling us about her childhood trauma as though it were a set of dry facts out of a book or something. Being supportive to someone in a way that helps them feel safe changing their situation (which by the way is a highly risky move, an abuse victim's life is in the most danger when they are trying to leave an abuser) actually means engaging with their emotions first and foremost, not your own. It takes empathy and respect. Not anger and blame and ego.
It isn't *shrug*...it's the fact that if you are not calm and steady, she won't see you as a safe harbor to come to if she ever decides she's ready for one.
She knows she can stay with me if needed
As far as getting angry around her about him I don’t do that like I’m doing here
I’ve mentioned a few times she should leave him one of them being the time I found out he hit her but I was doing it in a calm rational way I wasn’t ranting and raving about or anything
As far as why she didn’t call me she says a lot she doesn’t want to be a burden with emptying her problems to people. She also said she doesn’t want to seem like a victim
Lastly bringing up the fact that maybe he only hit her that one time which would mean it’s not a big deal( I would disagree)
But let’s hypothetically say he only hit her and my niece that one time a year or two ago.. Here’s what else he’s done:
Put a GPS tracker on her car to track her
Break multiple phones of hers
Probably trying to isolate her
So let’s say he hasn’t hit her since.. I think you’d agree even if that’s the case when you add it in with the things I mentioned it’s still a pretty abusive/dangerous relationship for her
I just squeaked out a LTR where I was isolated in sooooo many ways. My neighbors honestly thought I was deaf.
Sometimes you don't see the horror pit you've fallen into until someone outside of it points it out to you................
To answer OPs question, predatory people are good at picking out victims. They read body language, they cozy up to vunerable people and "lovebomb" them.
Trust me there are plenty of "lovely dovey" looking couples who are not so happy behind closed doors.
The classic saying is a wolf in sheep's clothing.....It is that simple.
It’s scary how they can quickly identify vulnerable people they know they can take advantage of
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