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Old 06-29-2023, 10:29 AM
 
Location: Phoenix, AZ
20,366 posts, read 14,640,743 times
Reputation: 39406

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Quote:
Originally Posted by harry chickpea View Post
While I am sorry that you had that experience, generalizing it to an entire generation is not fair or reasonable.

I could say how my parents were "selfish" in ways that might horrify you. It serves little purpose, other than to suggest that your generalization is incorrect.
Yeah, I think it's sort of a situation where things kinda flip back and forth (but not in clear cut generations, it's more messy than that, but just vague generalities)... So you had the "Silent Gen" or whatever, the ones who are dying off now. My grandparents' generation and my father in law's. They saw the Depression. They worked their butts off and reaped serious benefits from doing so. Now I am not like the younger ones who think of the Boomers as these rich old people. My parents and my husband are Boomers. My parents were incredibly selfish people. They were adults of the 80s, materialistic and sometimes kinda spoiled. They got a lot of benefit from their parents, they got inheritances. They had the wiggle room to make bad decisions and not die. And they were the first wave of mass divorce.

I am the youngest end of Gen X. I was a feral latchkey kid. My Boomer parents were too busy chain smoking, hard working (in a "power suit with shoulder pads" kind of way), snorting coke and hating each other, to even care what I was up to. I was NOT spoiled. It was the opposite of helicopter parenting. Like, I recently discovered permanent damage to my health that was caused by how neglected I was in some ways as a kid. Of course, they don't think that they were bad parents because hey...we had a home, there was food in the kitchen though I had to learn to make it when I was like 6 or 7. "You're alive, aren't you? You turned out fine." Well? I mean. I am very resilient. I have some skills that serve me really well that I only got from growing up learning them. Sometimes I feel a certain way about it, but... I dunno.

So then I had kids. And I was so determined to make them feel loved, to give them magical holidays, to let them be children and have a good childhood full of wonder and joy, to keep them safe. I think I did helicopter them a bit. Now I was not the parent screaming at their teachers because my perfect baby could do no wrong, no. And unfortunately their father was "a piece of work" as they say... But I think I spoiled them, overcorrected in the opposite direction from my parents' neglect. And now they are struggling and they seem so soft and fragile to me.

It's that old saying...

Hard times make strong men.
Strong men (well, people) make good times.
Good times make weak...people.
Weak people make hard times...

Etc. It's like a pendulum.

I wonder how Gen Z will raise their kids...
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Old 06-29-2023, 10:50 AM
 
Location: Dessert
10,890 posts, read 7,373,369 times
Reputation: 28062
I think many people who have children are a lot more selfish than those who don't. Have you ever seen strollers used as offensive weapons? I'm headed down a path, only to have this low barrier thrust in front of me so some *parent* can get ahead? I could trip over it, hurt myself AND your child! You're an idiot!

They teach their kids the same bad behavior.


There are interesting YouTubes on the theory of stupidity.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ww47bR86wSc

This divides actions up into four types:
Altruistic, where you do something that helps someone else but hurts you, like donating money or rescuing someone in danger.
Stupid, where the action hurts others without benefiting you
Intelligent, where you and others benefit, and
Bandit, where you are the only one who benefits, while others are harmed. This is where selfishness lives.

So folks who block the aisles at Walmart, cut you off in traffic, or steal your wallet? Selfish bandits.

Those parents using their child to block others? Bandit, with a big possibility of Stupid.

Using your turn signal? Intelligent with a side of Altruistic

Random vandalism? Stupidity.
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Old 06-29-2023, 01:08 PM
 
23,591 posts, read 70,367,145 times
Reputation: 49231
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic_Spork View Post
Yeah, I think it's sort of a situation where things kinda flip back and forth (but not in clear cut generations, it's more messy than that, but just vague generalities)... So you had the "Silent Gen" or whatever, the ones who are dying off now. My grandparents' generation and my father in law's. They saw the Depression. They worked their butts off and reaped serious benefits from doing so. Now I am not like the younger ones who think of the Boomers as these rich old people. My parents and my husband are Boomers. My parents were incredibly selfish people. They were adults of the 80s, materialistic and sometimes kinda spoiled. They got a lot of benefit from their parents, they got inheritances. They had the wiggle room to make bad decisions and not die. And they were the first wave of mass divorce.

I am the youngest end of Gen X. I was a feral latchkey kid. My Boomer parents were too busy chain smoking, hard working (in a "power suit with shoulder pads" kind of way), snorting coke and hating each other, to even care what I was up to. I was NOT spoiled. It was the opposite of helicopter parenting. Like, I recently discovered permanent damage to my health that was caused by how neglected I was in some ways as a kid. Of course, they don't think that they were bad parents because hey...we had a home, there was food in the kitchen though I had to learn to make it when I was like 6 or 7. "You're alive, aren't you? You turned out fine." Well? I mean. I am very resilient. I have some skills that serve me really well that I only got from growing up learning them. Sometimes I feel a certain way about it, but... I dunno.

So then I had kids. And I was so determined to make them feel loved, to give them magical holidays, to let them be children and have a good childhood full of wonder and joy, to keep them safe. I think I did helicopter them a bit. Now I was not the parent screaming at their teachers because my perfect baby could do no wrong, no. And unfortunately their father was "a piece of work" as they say... But I think I spoiled them, overcorrected in the opposite direction from my parents' neglect. And now they are struggling and they seem so soft and fragile to me.

It's that old saying...

Hard times make strong men.
Strong men (well, people) make good times.
Good times make weak...people.
Weak people make hard times...

Etc. It's like a pendulum.

I wonder how Gen Z will raise their kids...
I'm kind of amused how one poster took a single sentence where I pointed out a gross generalization as an entire personal lecture. Dang, I must be good!

My parents were of the depression era. However, some of what you describe also fits, although they weren't particularly self-destructive. To give a simple example of how unaware and blasé they were about the needs of their offspring, even though my mother was a teacher, it took another teacher in the fourth grade to recognize my nearsightedness and need for glasses when I repeatedly curled my hand for use as a small aperture to be able to see 3" letters on a blackboard from the front row of seats. I literally had never seen the stars except in books before that. Badly needed dental restorative work was deferred for years in deference to purchase of a small cabin cruiser, and even then couched as "an incredible gift." Truth be told, I think outsiders were noticing the discrepancies and social pressure was at play in making the dental work happen. There was a tiny clothing and food budget allowed for my brothers and my needs, while my father had his boats and toys and new cars and restaurant meals and vacations everywhere. Even inflation adjusted, most dogs today probably have a larger allowed budget per animal than we had. So you have a personal example from one generation, I have a personal example from another previous generation, and we can empirically show that it (selfish behavior) is less an issue of which generation, and more one of family dynamics and values.

The pendulum idea of alternating generations within a family expressing various repeating behavior patterns was well recognized in Adlerian psychology and others. In this case, my father, in particular, was spoiled as a child and ended up as manipulative to his own advantage.

Broad cultural influences absolutely DO occur, but to castigate an entire generation without exception is over-reach.
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Old 06-29-2023, 01:11 PM
 
Location: Washington state
7,027 posts, read 4,889,008 times
Reputation: 21892
Quote:
Originally Posted by steiconi View Post
I think many people who have children are a lot more selfish than those who don't. Have you ever seen strollers used as offensive weapons? I'm headed down a path, only to have this low barrier thrust in front of me so some *parent* can get ahead? I could trip over it, hurt myself AND your child! You're an idiot!

They teach their kids the same bad behavior.


There are interesting YouTubes on the theory of stupidity.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ww47bR86wSc

This divides actions up into four types:
Altruistic, where you do something that helps someone else but hurts you, like donating money or rescuing someone in danger.
Stupid, where the action hurts others without benefiting you
Intelligent, where you and others benefit, and
Bandit, where you are the only one who benefits, while others are harmed. This is where selfishness lives.

So folks who block the aisles at Walmart, cut you off in traffic, or steal your wallet? Selfish bandits.

Those parents using their child to block others? Bandit, with a big possibility of Stupid.

Using your turn signal? Intelligent with a side of Altruistic

Random vandalism? Stupidity.

But using your turn signal is required when driving. So yu could say people who use their turn signals are looking out for themselves in that they don't want either a ticket or an accident.

If you want to see true altruism, watch when someone is going to exit a roundabout. That person may take the time to use his signal if he's leaving the roundabout so that people entering it in front of him can do so without stopping, because they know that person on their left using his signal isn't continuing around the circle.
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Old 06-29-2023, 03:06 PM
 
Location: Phoenix, AZ
20,366 posts, read 14,640,743 times
Reputation: 39406
Quote:
Originally Posted by rodentraiser View Post
But using your turn signal is required when driving. So yu could say people who use their turn signals are looking out for themselves in that they don't want either a ticket or an accident.

If you want to see true altruism, watch when someone is going to exit a roundabout. That person may take the time to use his signal if he's leaving the roundabout so that people entering it in front of him can do so without stopping, because they know that person on their left using his signal isn't continuing around the circle.
Sadly, the way people drive around here, I would not trust a turn signal in your roundabout example. I see them more as a warning when someone is about to pull in front of me, if I'm lucky and they bother to warn me at all.

People everywhere say that they have the worst drivers and it usually isn't true...but in Phoenix? Whoo...look out...

And automotive "altruism" is not always a good idea. Especially in terms of yielding right of way when you are not supposed to. There is a thing called the "wave of death."

https://www.callkleinlawyers.com/ful...death%E2%80%9D.
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Old 06-29-2023, 05:14 PM
 
Location: Dessert
10,890 posts, read 7,373,369 times
Reputation: 28062
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic_Spork View Post
Sadly, the way people drive around here, I would not trust a turn signal in your roundabout example. I see them more as a warning when someone is about to pull in front of me, if I'm lucky and they bother to warn me at all.

People everywhere say that they have the worst drivers and it usually isn't true...but in Phoenix? Whoo...look out...

And automotive "altruism" is not always a good idea. Especially in terms of yielding right of way when you are not supposed to. There is a thing called the "wave of death."

https://www.callkleinlawyers.com/ful...death%E2%80%9D.
Yeah, I don't believe a turn signal, and when it's your turn, just go and get out of the way!

Altruism isn't always a good thing.
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Old 07-01-2023, 01:52 AM
 
Location: Earth
982 posts, read 539,238 times
Reputation: 2374
Selfish: Moving in with your daughter and son in law and asking them to buy a bigger more expensive house to accommodate you (and really playing on your daughters emotions to get what you want) then 6 months later moving out and taking your portion of the bills with you and leaving them a with a house payment that they cannot afford.
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Old 07-01-2023, 03:31 PM
 
9,301 posts, read 8,343,376 times
Reputation: 7328
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mink57 View Post
Have read one too many threads about some people who THINK someone is being "selfish".

My goodness...if a woman doesn't want to DATE a guy, somehow, she's being 'selfish'. If she doesn't want to have sex, she's being 'selfish'.

if a dude doesn't give a buck to a homeless guy, that dude is being selfish.

Where does selfishness begin and end?

What SAY you?
Hmm

Often times, I find the people who are quick to call someone selfish are themselves selfish to a greater extent than the person they are pointing the finger at.

As someone who has been homeless at some point, I didn't require anyone to give me anything. Maybe the person who didn't give me a buck didn't have a buck to give me. I was more concerned about earning my own money and not having to depend on someone giving me anything. But that is a whole can of worms. As far as I can tell, everyone has their own set of problems and is not obligated to give ME anything because I was and am an able bodied person. As to other people who are homeless, they may have a greater need.
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Old 07-06-2023, 08:43 AM
 
Location: Arizona
8,270 posts, read 8,644,982 times
Reputation: 27669
Selfish is when vegans have a dinner party with non-vegans and don't serve any meat, after eating at the homes of the other guests who always accommodated them. My next party wouldn't include the vegans.

Selfish is when parents ask their children "when are you going to make me a grandma?"

Selfish is asking a friend to take you to the airport when there are Ubers, shuttles, cabs, etc. They don't care about your time.

Selfish is being almost always late.

Selfish is monopolizing the conversation or changing the subject.
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Old 07-06-2023, 11:28 AM
 
595 posts, read 264,188 times
Reputation: 2659
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea View Post
It depends on why they don't want kids.

Some believe they would not make good parents and they're probably right and there's nothing selfish about that. They're just being honest with everyone, including themselves (the most important thing).

Others see children as infringing on self-actualization. It's difficult to raise children and build a career or business, or travel and explore. Those people can adopt later in life and raise children (many of them do) and there's nothing selfish about that.

But, if they're like a high school friend and his wife, they are selfish. They were constantly mired in debt because they have to have the newest and bestest of everything. Electronics, clothing, shoes, it didn't matter.

In high school, I had one stereo system. He had 8 different ones. Totally new everything: turntable, cassette deck, tuner, equalizer, pre-amp, amp, speakers. Always had to have the newest TV on the market. The newest of everything on the market.

The last time I saw them they were in a total panic because she might be pregnant which means they'd have to spend money on someone other than themselves.

He and his wife are emotionally insecure and they both seek security through material things, and that makes them selfish.
You're starting from an assumption that everyone is supposed to have kids, but if they choose not to, only certain reasons having to do with some kind of flaw that would make them lousy parents are legit, while other reasons are "selfish" and not legit.

Thing is, people who don't want kids don't require other people's approval or need other people's judgment on what is and is not an acceptable reason not to have them. Not for nothing, but one of the most common reasons for not wanting kids is simply not wanting kids.

I saw a brilliant explanation of this on Insta today. The person said she would be good at being a graphic designer or an early childhood educator, but she just doesn't want to do those things, so she doesn't do them. Same thing for parenting. She knows she'd be a great mother, but she doesn't want to do it, so she doesn't do it. That absolutely does not make her selfish. It makes her someone who doesn't want to have kids. I'm the same way. Never wanted them, so I didn't have them. That's it. That's the whole thing.

Another reason people choose not to have kids is because they wish to stop a cycle of generational trauma. Being traumatized is not a character flaw on the part of the person who is traumatized. It's the fault of the perpetrator, usually the parents.

Which brings me to your friends. I wouldn't be so quick to brand them as both emotionally insecure and selfish. If they are seeking security through material things as you say, it could very well be because of something that goes all the way back to their own childhoods, something you have no way of knowing about because you didn't grow up in the same homes as they did, something that no matter how well you think you know them, they are too ashamed to share with you. A lot of people who seek security in material things lacked something basic and essential in childhood, either through poverty, neglect, abuse, or another adverse childhood experience. Maybe their parents deprived them of essentials as a punishment for not being a "good" girl or boy, like "because you were a bad girl/boy, you're going to bed without any supper." Or maybe they had parents who only showed love through gifts (which is absolutely NOT enough to meet a child's need for affection), so they do, too. I also think that unless they told you, explicitly, that they are freaking out about her potential pregnancy because it means they will have to spend money on someone other than themselves, it's not fair for you to assume that. They could so equate love and security with material things that they're afraid they won't be able to give the kid enough things to make the kid feel loved and secure according to THEIR dysfunctional definition of love. You just don't know the reasons why they don't want kids, and honestly...

Quote:
Originally Posted by msRB311 View Post
I never understood how people who don't want kids are selfish.
Me either. I never understood how it's anyone else's business but that of the people who choose not to have kids, in the first place.
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