Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Psychology
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 05-27-2024, 11:24 AM
 
Location: SF/Mill Valley
8,817 posts, read 3,969,393 times
Reputation: 6207

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by westsideboy View Post
I just wanted to point out that plenty of women don't want whiny guys, not saying I am that whiny, but on the "feeling" vs "doing" scale, guys that lean towards "doing" are normally better received by society, YMMV of course.
There’s a difference between ‘whining’ (online, at work or to a friend) vs. honest two-way communication (especially relative to relationships with women). The latter is not about society. That said, women tend to be more talkative about feelings, as a whole - at least relative to the women I’ve dated over the years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by westsideboy View Post
The second comment isn't directed towards any individual, but in group setting, or group conversations, people do tend to be loathe to break with societal, or at least group, consensus. It's human nature, be the one that vocally bucks the trend and be seen as the outlier. In relationships people tend to go do what they want to do, but that doesn't mean they are going to be forthright (maybe a better word than honest) about it when talking to others.
I don’t agree; a relationship is ultimately about our happiness, as individuals. Else, what’s the point of having one? As such, it doesn’t have anything to do with a societal consensus. In fact, if one isn’t honest about who they are or what they seek, how is a healthy/successful relationship (even) possible?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 05-27-2024, 02:27 PM
 
Location: Cumberland
7,116 posts, read 11,407,685 times
Reputation: 6388
Quote:
Originally Posted by CorporateCowboy View Post
There’s a difference between ‘whining’ (online, at work or to a friend) vs. honest two-way communication (especially relative to relationships with women). The latter is not about society. That said, women tend to be more talkative about feelings, as a whole - at least relative to the women I’ve dated over the years.



I don’t agree; a relationship is ultimately about our happiness, as individuals. Else, what’s the point of having one? As such, it doesn’t have anything to do with a societal consensus. In fact, if one isn’t honest about who they are or what they seek, how is a healthy/successful relationship (even) possible?

I agree there are gradations of emotional expression.

I'll stick to my guns that society doesn't reward whiny men (emotive is a less loaded word,) neither other men nor women choose to be around emotive guys with a few exceptions of course. It's fine you disagree, but in my life, I haven't found emotive guys to be well received, it almost always comes across and is received the wrong way. Others have written about this at length in the thread.

Again, I agree that people do what they want to do in relationships. My point is that most people don't go around purposefully bucking the opinion of the majority in group settings, regardless of their personal preference, and regardless of topic. Sure, you can have dialog and conversation. Among people you are comfortable with you can express personal preference, but it's almost always muted and not designed to make the speaker stick out as an outlier.

Again, again, every individual is different, of course there are people (like me) that have zero concern for group consensus and will bang my drum loudly, even when it offends others. But I know how it is received, I have an eye for watching others do it and get the same result. But let's not pretend that is how most people act in group settings, or I guess better put, if the groups you are around are full of people expressing staunch individual opinions even they go against the grain of societal expectation, group convention, the flow of conversation, please share! I seek out people like that and find them rare as hen's teeth.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-27-2024, 07:18 PM
 
Location: Phoenix, AZ
20,467 posts, read 14,800,555 times
Reputation: 39698
There are times that I wish we could see some things as less of a men this/women that gendered issue and more of a "this is a hard thing about being a human" thing... Gotta say, adult people who are often prone to whining, complaining, grousing, sniping, or in general having a nasty attitude...others often have negative opinions of them. How many threads could we find around here, maybe in Non-Romantic Relationships for instance, about a mother who never stopped criticizing or complaining? When everything that comes outta your face is negative, others react negatively to it. No one really is going to want to sign up to get on that ride with you.

But if you have trusted friends or close family, then usually - man or woman - if you're just going through something and it isn't just yet another session of a never-ending mope fest, then typically someone with a vested interest will be there for you. Now it's also true that people respond to a bid for this sort of emotional labor in different ways. Some will be there and listen. Some will offer advice. Some will try to distract you, take your mind off it. But that does not mean they don't care, or that sharing necessarily made them think less of you.

But most of us cannot just go around spewing deeply personal and upsetting stuff at relative strangers or arms-length acquaintances, and have it be taken as appropriate. I've had female coworkers who had emotional outbursts at the office before, and guess what? They don't work for the company anymore. The idea that women can always find a safe shoulder to cry on at any time, is false. Fact is, there is a time and a place for emotional vulnerability no matter who you are.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OscarNiemeyer View Post
Katnan , I generally enjoy reading your posts. Usually you are thoughtful,and not rash in judgement, but I think you missed that mark with this comment.

Westside boy was trying to explain why he and so many men are reluctant to be more emotionally open (ie often women aren't receptive to men when they are being emotionally vulnerable) and instead of acknowledging his perspective, you just mocked him for it with a major contempt display.

Which also proves his larger point. Women regularly don't seem to want to hear guys being emotionally vulnerable. Instead the unspoken subtext is guys should shut up and not complain.

Society rushes to respond to women's tears. No one wants to hear a man complain -even very normally thoughtful women like yourself. A guy who complains just seems weak. That is the message society repeatedly gives men. Is there any surprise that men don't ever want to be emotionally vulnerable?
I don't agree with this. I don't know if anyone else here had one of these, but I had a "I will give you something to cry about" Dad. I bet some others around here did, too, it wasn't terribly uncommon for those of us Gen X and older. Did not matter to him that I was a girl. If I was bothering him with my whining I probably was going to get whooped for it. Including once when I was like 4 or 5 and woke up with a nightmare in the night. K? So growing up like that, I promise a lot of girls learned you can't just cry and expect people to comfort you or to care.

I'm saying that you might be surprised who experienced some of the same traumas you did, who might understand better than you think. And no, society and strangers do not come dashing up with kindness (and no ulterior motives LOL) just because a woman sheds a tear. And to some extent most of us live in a world where being vulnerable at the wrong time around the wrong people can get us hurt, bad. So long as there could be a dangerous person around who doesn't wish me well, letting my guard down and making myself look weak might not be safe. And the most dangerous one of all was a husband I was with for 18 years - someone who has no understanding whatsoever of empathy. When I cried because I was out of my mind with fear and frustration, he stood there in a rage and told me to turn off the waterworks, that women's manipulations did not work on him.

I am still working to undo the damage, 9 years into a safe and loving relationship, I still struggle to ask for support or understanding, or I brace for rage that isn't coming. I still struggle to express emotion because in my last relationship, doing so would usually trigger blowups from him.

Just please don't act like women in general all live in this nice, soft, cozy supportive world. We freaking don't. There are men who have a lot of emotional support, there are women who have none. And in any case, it has a lot to do with figuring out how to cultivate healthy relationships with healthy others in our lives. It makes all the difference no matter who you are.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-27-2024, 08:38 PM
 
Location: SF/Mill Valley
8,817 posts, read 3,969,393 times
Reputation: 6207
Quote:
Originally Posted by westsideboy View Post
I'll stick to my guns that society doesn't reward whiny men (emotive is a less loaded word,) neither other men nor women choose to be around emotive guys with a few exceptions of course. It's fine you disagree, but in my life, I haven't found emotive guys to be well received, it almost always comes across and is received the wrong way.
I don’t think society rewards ‘whiny men’ (or women) either. My point, again, is that there is a huge difference between ‘complaining’ vs. expressing how we’re feeling to a woman (when asked) or speaking to what we want in a relationship (or not). The latter involves an invested two-way communication.

Quote:
Originally Posted by westsideboy View Post
There are exceptions of course, but what women and men say they want in a partner is not always want they really want, it's want they are supposed to say they want or what society tells them they should say.
Quote:
Originally Posted by westsideboy View Post
My point is that most people don't go around purposefully bucking the opinion of the majority in group settings, regardless of their personal preference, and regardless of topic.
My point is that relationships are about us as individuals, not society; you specifically stated most (men and women) are dishonest as they follow ‘society’ regarding what they want in a relationship. It’s absurd, particularly relative to a psychology forum, as there is no point in maintaining a relationship that lacks honesty/direct communication.

Quote:
Originally Posted by westsideboy View Post
It comes out differently and, yes, the natural reaction from woman and other men alike is "be a man and suck it up."
Frankly, many of your posts come across as whiny/complaintive.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old Yesterday, 06:06 AM
 
Location: Cumberland
7,116 posts, read 11,407,685 times
Reputation: 6388
Quote:
Originally Posted by CorporateCowboy View Post
I don’t think society rewards ‘whiny men’ (or women) either. My point, again, is that there is a huge difference between ‘complaining’ vs. expressing how we’re feeling to a woman (when asked) or speaking to what we want in a relationship (or not). The latter involves an invested two-way communication.





My point is that relationships are about us as individuals, not society; you specifically stated most (men and women) are dishonest as they follow ‘society’ regarding what they want in a relationship. It’s absurd, particularly relative to a psychology forum, as there is no point in maintaining a relationship that lacks honesty/direct communication.



Frankly, many of your posts come across as whiny/complaintive.
Oh, okay, this was my original post:

There are exceptions of course, but what women and men say they want in a partner is not always want they really want, it's want they are supposed to say they want or what society tells them they should say."

I didn't word it well, but I meant what I followed up with, that people DO what they want in relationships but are likely to CONFORM to the norms of society when discussing it with others. I didn't cite any peer reviewed article because it's only my observation and well, I didn't think this forum was serious enough to warrant that level of research.

Yeah, I can sound whiny. The point of the thread is asking why men are loathe to show emotions sometimes. I decided to give an emotive answer and am not surprised with how it is received. To be honest, the other poster is probably closest to the mark, complainers, whiners, people who emote too much, regardless of gender, are viewed negatively by society. The overbearing mom was their example, the "whiny guy" is another archetype.

I am not trying to dismiss your point about gradations of appropriate emotional response, only wanted to point out that "invested two way communication" is one end of the emoting spectrum. Talking about it doesn't encompass the range of emotions expressed by people, men or women, and how men are received when they go beyond that is the topic at issue.

I suppose I could cross post in the sociology forum, but group dynamics exist is Psychology and influence both the outward actions of people and their inner decision making processes. Discussing relationships with others vs. the way you choose to act in your own relationship are not always the same and the difference is interesting to me at least.

Last edited by westsideboy; Yesterday at 07:12 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old Yesterday, 08:40 AM
 
Location: SF/Mill Valley
8,817 posts, read 3,969,393 times
Reputation: 6207
Quote:
Originally Posted by westsideboy View Post
I am not trying to dismiss your point about gradations of appropriate emotional response, only wanted to point out that "invested two way communication" is one end of the emoting spectrum. Talking about it doesn't encompass the range of emotions expressed by people, men or women, and how men are received when they go beyond that is the topic at issue.
My entire point is the distinction between (appropriately) expressing emotion (per the thread) vs. ‘whining’; the latter is one-sided and not an exchange. The former is necessary relative to a healthy relationship; obviously, whining/complaining, which you have been speaking to, is not conducive to anything but self-pity and frustration.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OscarNiemeyer View Post
Society rushes to respond to women's tears. No one wants to hear a man complain -even very normally thoughtful women like yourself. A guy who complains just seems weak. That is the message society repeatedly gives men. Is there any surprise that men don't ever want to be emotionally vulnerable?
I don’t equate a woman’s tears to ‘complaining’ nor do I think ‘society rushes to respond’ to such. That said, I agree a guy who complains is mentally weak or unhealthy, as are women who regularly do so. However, similar to westsideboy, you’re conflating the communication of one’s feelings or opinion with complaining. They are two very different things.

From my perspective, it’s not that we don’t want to be emotionally vulnerable (with certain women); it’s that it doesn’t always come as easily to us due to our environment and upbringing (friends, family, sports, career, whatever) nor do we tend to be as focused on marriage or children, as a whole.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old Yesterday, 08:59 AM
 
2,182 posts, read 1,083,691 times
Reputation: 6151
I think it's because we don't want to be bickered and mansplained to death online.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old Yesterday, 09:17 AM
 
19,807 posts, read 12,356,956 times
Reputation: 26702
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Dissenter View Post
Sharing EVERY emotion with whomever is around would be like sharing your underwear with someone standing next to you. It’s unneeded and very little good can come from it.
Lol. Wouldn't want to do that.

Some people are more emotional than others and it wouldn't work so well for highly emotional or volatile people. But others just like to keep it real. It's hard for me to hold back what I feel, but I am not super emotional, won't cry or scream but won't cover up either. It's more like getting the whole point across and I think my emotions align with logic. Some people don't want to see any emotion or they get uncomfortable but imo expression of emotion it is an important part of communication. Just don't go crazy with it, like anything else.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old Yesterday, 09:27 AM
 
4,085 posts, read 3,354,075 times
Reputation: 6558
Honestly I don't think guys are reluctant to discuss feelings, or display emotions, but I think there is a time and place for everything and not all emotions are appropriate to be shared in all contexts either.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old Yesterday, 10:11 AM
 
Location: Southern MN
12,153 posts, read 8,535,690 times
Reputation: 45128
Most of us have never been taught how to handle our strongest emotions. It's a big reason there is a call for counseling. It's not the emotion, itself, that's the problem; it's the way we express them and we don't know how to do that without putting others on alert.

We tend to exaggerate in our minds the way uncomfortable feelings have been directed at us. How many times have you heard someone say, "He's yelling at me" only to find out the person never raised his voic?. But that's how it was perceived by the receiver.

I'm gonna say it, and chances many will disagree, but most of us fear strong emotions in ourselves and others. So much so that most of us will deny it. But think.

What do I do for or say to a grieving newly widowed woman who is sobbing her heart out?

How do I manage an angry boss so that it doesn't cost me my job?

The store is full of people and my three-year-old is having a full blown tantrum on the floor. Now what?

If I tell my new boyfriend that what he's doing makes me feel jealous will he leave me?

What does it even mean when my wife won't answer my question?

Red flags all and they feel like red hot pokers when we don't have experience. Not dealing with any of these situations may create further problems down the road. But how and when? And yes, where and to whom?

Complicated situations and no one gives us much to go on other than a reassuring, "Feelings are healthy."
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply

Quick Reply
Message:


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Psychology

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top