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Old 06-12-2024, 08:51 AM
Status: "Chronically sleep-deprived" (set 5 days ago)
 
Location: Sagittarius Arm, Milky Way, Universe Prime
64 posts, read 23,047 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fleetiebelle View Post
There have been studies in workplace communication that women do often couch their statements to sound softer: "maybe I'm misunderstanding..." or "correct me if I'm wrong but..." When the women, in fact, are not confused at all about what they're saying. But as the OP said, just bluntly saying, "we decided to do Project B last week, for XYZ reasons. Is there a reason you're backtracking now?" gets marked as brusque or aggressive.
Exactly! And when we DO phrase things as questions, we are often not taken seriously or we are seen as being unsure or tentative and less competent than men, even if we are the most competent person in the room at the moment. So here we are, working hard on whatever-it-is, and also having to do the emotional labor of massaging the egos of the men in the room, while being almost required to undermine ourselves lest we be perceived negatively. Yet when we do that, we shift to being perceived in a different negative light.
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Old 06-12-2024, 08:56 AM
 
Location: Florida
15,047 posts, read 9,946,537 times
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There is often more at work then meets the eye...or the ear. There are no absolutes in biology.

When men communicate with each other, there is often a well defined "line in the sand" that we do not cross. However when a man and a woman communicate, the line is like a fault line. It's probably better to say masculine and feminine communication since there is always 'some' crossing of style. Where we fail is, our inability to appreciate and understand the obvious differences.

In the case of the young girl running to the front of the line or taking the crayon I don't see it as aggressive behavior, but as selfish behavior. In fact selfishness is a more feminine trait. Yes...Biology is involved forged over the millennium. We teach our children to "share and play well with others"... right? We point out what is the social norm for good reason.

In the case of the OP... where she copied or mirrored the masculine style the man was using to communicate, that can easily be misinterpreted. Hard to gauge the dynamic, however when she returned later to repackage the conversation in a emotional context the man said... hmmmm. Why? Well I go back to what I said earlier, it's our lack of ability to appreciate and understand the obvious differences in masculine and feminine communication.

Personally I believe it better to communicate with our gut, rather than trying to mirror someone's else's style.
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Old 06-12-2024, 09:00 AM
 
Location: SF/Mill Valley
8,894 posts, read 4,024,551 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fleetiebelle View Post
There have been studies in workplace communication that women do often couch their statements to sound softer: "maybe I'm misunderstanding..." or "correct me if I'm wrong but..."
This is simply a type of collaborative communicative strategy which assertively demonstrates respect for others in the workplace while simultaneously making a point, regardless if it is a woman or man doing so.
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Old 06-12-2024, 09:05 AM
Status: "Chronically sleep-deprived" (set 5 days ago)
 
Location: Sagittarius Arm, Milky Way, Universe Prime
64 posts, read 23,047 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave_n_Tenn View Post
In the case of the young girl running to the front of the line or taking the crayon I don't see it as aggressive behavior, but as selfish behavior. In fact selfishness is a more feminine trait. Yes...Biology is involved forged over the millennium. We teach our children to "share and play well with others"... right? We point out what is the social norm for good reason.
How is it selfish that she chose the crayons she wanted to use? That's literally what they were there for. As for selfishness being a feminine trait, I would like to know where you got that idea. Women are socialized from childhood to be more cooperative than competitive, which is pretty much the opposite of selfishness.

Quote:
In the case of the OP... where she copied or mirrored the masculine style the man was using to communicate, that can easily be misinterpreted.
I wasn't copying or mirroring his style. I was simply speaking, and not phrasing everything as a question.

Quote:
Hard to gauge the dynamic, however when she returned later to repackage the conversation in a emotional context the man said... hmmmm. Why? Well I go back to what I said earlier, it's our lack of ability to appreciate and understand the obvious differences in masculine and feminine communication.
I'm curious as to WHY you think there are "obvious" differences between masculine and feminine communication, and where you think those come from? They're not biological.
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Old 06-12-2024, 10:26 AM
 
Location: Mayberry
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I'm happy and relieved that he actually said hmm that's a good question. You were communicating, he didnt' concede and neither did you.

When I read the topic I thought it's the opposite of that, but it totally depends on the individual, I don't think gender plays a part of this. I have this with a woman friend and I'm a woman, constantly interrupts to dispute my opinion and poof I'm invisible.
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Old 06-12-2024, 11:05 AM
 
Location: Florida
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ttott View Post
How is it selfish that she chose the crayons she wanted to use? That's literally what they were there for. As for selfishness being a feminine trait, I would like to know where you got that idea. Women are socialized from childhood to be more cooperative than competitive, which is pretty much the opposite of selfishness.


I wasn't copying or mirroring his style. I was simply speaking, and not phrasing everything as a question.


I'm curious as to WHY you think there are "obvious" differences between masculine and feminine communication, and where you think those come from? They're not biological.
All children are selfish, girls just more so. ... in fact watch children play. Again we are evaluated on how we share and play well with others. It's a leaned skill. Girls are better learners. Where I got that from is the fact that girls and women go through life very insecure. That insecurity is biologically based. Girls and women need security and when the opportunity presents itself they will seize the opportunity. This is a well documented physiological fact. It's neither good or bad....but it's definitely biological.

It did appear to me you were trying your best to remove emotion from the conversation you had... that is a masculine trait, therefore it's reasonable to assume you were trying to "meet him on his level = mirroring. Nothing wrong with that, but that's how I 'read' it in your post.

Biology plays are large role in communication. In fact masculine and feminine communication is significantly different. As I stated earlier our failure to see and acknowledge those differences contributes to the breakdown at times. To over come that simple truth, understanding is the key. No one can understand it for you.

Here's the test. If we use masculine communication... facts, word choices, semantics matter. If done effectively the listener would be able to "paraphrase and repeat back" the information. If we use feminine communication words are used to contain emotional content. If done effectively the listener would "resonate at the same level" the speaker is feeling. Again well establish truths. In the end... masculine commination transfers information to convince you and feminine communication transfers emotion to make you feel the same way they do.

You get to agree or disagree.
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Old 06-12-2024, 11:11 AM
Status: "Chronically sleep-deprived" (set 5 days ago)
 
Location: Sagittarius Arm, Milky Way, Universe Prime
64 posts, read 23,047 times
Reputation: 200
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave_n_Tenn View Post
All children are selfish, girls just more so. ... in fact watch children play. Again we are evaluated on how we share and play well with others. It's a leaned skill. Girls are better learners. Where I got that from is the fact that girls and women go through life very insecure. That insecurity is biologically based. Girls and women need security and when the opportunity presents itself they will seize the opportunity. This is a well documented physiological fact. It's neither good or bad....but it's definitely biological.

It did appear to me you were trying your best to remove emotion from the conversation you had... that is a masculine trait, therefore it's reasonable to assume you were trying to "meet him on his level = mirroring. Nothing wrong with that, but that's how I 'read' it in your post.

Biology plays are large role in communication. In fact masculine and feminine communication is significantly different. As I stated earlier our failure to see and acknowledge those differences contributes to the breakdown at times. To over come that simple truth, understanding is the key. No one can understand it for you.

Here's the test. If we use masculine communication... facts, word choices, semantics matter. If done effectively the listener would be able to "paraphrase and repeat back" the information. If we use feminine communication words are used to contain emotional content. If done effectively the listener would "resonate at the same level" the speaker is feeling. Again well establish truths. In the end... masculine commination transfers information to convince you and feminine communication transfers emotion to make you feel the same way they do.

You get to agree or disagree.
I don't know what you're smoking, but please keep it away from me.
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Old 06-12-2024, 01:41 PM
 
7,684 posts, read 4,220,244 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ttott View Post
He's a person who generally asks for reasons WHY, so I provided them. The discussion was about the best way to accomplish something.


While I see your point to an extent, would you make that same suggestion to a man? I mean, sure, it's not a bad idea in some situations, regardless of the gender of the speaker or the listener. On the other hand, why should a woman in particular have to phrase her statements as questions? I'm not saying you think that, but a lot of people do seem to.

In this particular conversation, we were already quite a way into answering the question of how best to do something and were both stating our suggestions.
I would make the same suggestions to a man who was told he was being aggressive, admitted that it bothered him, and reached out for a different perspective. When a man asserts himself in a group and there is no mistaking it for aggressiveness, it is because he has an acceptable reputation. When he speaks, people listen. Knowing when to speak is another skill he has developed.

But if his words or behavior are mistaken for aggressiveness, then I would think he needs to establish himself as a team player first, where some ideas, even if they are not the best, will be promoted before others because of who the ideas came from.

Last edited by elyn02; 06-12-2024 at 01:55 PM..
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Old 06-12-2024, 01:53 PM
 
7,684 posts, read 4,220,244 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fleetiebelle View Post
There have been studies in workplace communication that women do often couch their statements to sound softer: "maybe I'm misunderstanding..." or "correct me if I'm wrong but..." When the women, in fact, are not confused at all about what they're saying. But as the OP said, just bluntly saying, "we decided to do Project B last week, for XYZ reasons. Is there a reason you're backtracking now?" gets marked as brusque or aggressive.
There is a beautiful woman I work with who speaks just like that and is still considered the sweetest person in the world. Of course, it helps that she is beautiful, but I am going to give her credit where credit is due. She makes sure to contribute by supporting others at other times so everyone feels like they have a chance to contribute and be recognized.

When a co-worker was unhappy about the lack of support, she made sure to point out that she (us) supported them in the past. When the co-worker finally read the room, he said, "I'm not angry at you, just that..." and her response was, "I know you are not angry at us because there is no reason for you to be."
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Old 06-12-2024, 03:41 PM
 
Location: on the wind
23,654 posts, read 19,471,121 times
Reputation: 76271
Quote:
Originally Posted by harry chickpea View Post
My thoughts? First, you have a real friend there. A friend who is willing to reconsider and re-evaluate is a friend indeed.

Second? Read Clarissa Pinkola Estes "Women Who Run With The Wolves."
Agree, both about the friend and about the book. An excellent, thought-provoking read! Also remember that it takes two to have a conversation; one to speak and the other to hear. What is said is not necessarily what the other hears. There are overtones. Both bring their personal expectations, experience, preconceptions into it.
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