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I have to agree with you Tute. My own mother at the age of 55 still gets all pouty for days when some man disappoints her. My own sadness comes from the desire to simply find someone less typical.
That's real talk, buddy. However, I was not raised to learn self-worth either. Everyone can't blame their short-comings as being an unfortunate product of environment.
Yeah we can. It's just that it doesn't matter. The blame versus responsibility thing. Even if I do think that most of my personality stuff, the good, bad and ugly, is a product of my life experiences and environment and upbringing...I can put blame somewhere...that does not mean it isn't my RESPONSIBILITY to grow and learn and do better. Some things weren't our fault. So we don't have to beat ourselves up over that. But we can still grow and be happy and healthy anyhow, we're not tethered to suffering if we choose not to be.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DennyCrane
As a guy (and I suspect other guys feel this way too), I often feel like I'm being penalized for the behavior of other men. If a woman has had enough guys treat her like dirt, she starts to worry that they're all like that. So she becomes jaded and cynical, looking for signs that the guy in front of her is just like the others. When I meet a woman for the first time, I try to make a good impression. But that isn't easy if she's already conditioned to suspect that you might be a jerk.
Tough.
Sorry.
Guys don't wear placards or have digital readouts. If being too trusting and letting ourselves be vulnerable is liable to get us in trouble, then guys need to accept that it might take a minute for you to EARN trust. But first you gotta earn that minute, because time is the most finite resource we've all got on this mudball, and nobody wants to waste it.
And frankly I've known guys who could do to learn that lesson too, who were too trusting. Women can take advantage and mess you over too, you know. I think maybe a lot of people could benefit by slowing down, chilling out, and giving connections a bit more time to grow or fail.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joei
Thats not a valid point, thats a lie from hell...and Im going to tell you why.
You do OWE someone something. The responsibility is to treat others as they want to be treated.
I hate when people say that. I really do. Because what thats saying is, "I'm going to do what I wanna do regardless, the hell with how you feel. Im selfish, Im self absorbed, Im not going to do my part in this INTER-PERSONAL relationship because you aren't worth my time and effort...so I dont owe that to you. So I'm going to leave you in the lurch, the hell with the time and conversation we shared last week...because I dont owe you ****."
1 of my legs is stronger than the other. Thats my kicking leg. I want to use it on the next person who says "dont owe you anything"
As another poster mentioned, you seem to be missing the context of why this tends to be said. Usually it's because of unreciprocated feelings or interest. Often because a man is angry that a woman he is attracted to doesn't want to give him the time of day, for instance...in which case, well, she does not owe him a chance if she isn't interested. It's also a way to make peace with situations like what OP is talking about.
When someone drops you for instance after you've had some intimacy and you're starting to grow a bit of investment, that hurts. It is human nature to think, "I'm not good enough, no man will ever want to commit to me." or "Men only ever want to use women, I will never trust a man again. I'm so done!" (Men do this, too.) But that generalizing, always/never thinking, it's nothing but negative self talk. It's BS really. The last time a man made me feel this way, a main factor in how I made peace with the situation was that I remembered all the times I just wasn't that into some guy, when he was catching feels for me, and how that felt when the shoe was on the other foot. And I was like, well...no one owes anyone anything. So what if I was starting to feel invested? He just wasn't. And that's gotta be ok or else nobody gets to have autonomy or consent. If I am not obligated to keep on with some guy if I'm not feelin' it...neither is that dude obligated to do so with me.
The problem, and one of the reasons this is especially stinging when men do this with women though... It does not come off as "he just wasn't feeling emotionally into me and so he ended our connection" if sex is involved. We are told and told about how men will just con us and use us for sex. Not to trust those scheming men. And to keep ourselves good and pure by not letting men trick us this way. And also, that if we do get "taken" by this con, then our own value is then diminished. We will never be loved, we'll be...what...used nasty chewing gum? Even?... So it's all that shame baggage that comes into play when women talk like the OP described. It's very cultural. So women go for "advice" which in fact, what we really need, is for someone to tell us we are still worth something...because our society has said that we're suckers and losers and we just gave up our value to a smirking charlatan who has seized it and skipped off with it. Now we're damaged, broken, unlovable. We're trained in this from childhood, from schools, parents, religions. It's kinda freakin' heavy stuff. So to be like "What, just get over it, boom-pow" is...well, not very understanding at least I guess.
Thats not a valid point, thats a lie from hell...and Im going to tell you why.
You do OWE someone something. The responsibility is to treat others as they want to be treated.
I hate when people say that. I really do. Because what thats saying is, "I'm going to do what I wanna do regardless, the hell with how you feel. Im selfish, Im self absorbed, Im not going to do my part in this INTER-PERSONAL relationship because you aren't worth my time and effort...so I dont owe that to you. So I'm going to leave you in the lurch, the hell with the time and conversation we shared last week...because I dont owe you ****."
1 of my legs is stronger than the other. Thats my kicking leg. I want to use it on the next person who says "dont owe you anything"
Nobody owes anybody anything. They're not obligated to like you, be nice to you, or give you a chance.
A rep informed me that this was an old thread...I'm a little perplexed because it looks (here) like I resurrected it, but I don't tend to do that, I usually only reply to active threads, so I wonder if someone bumped it whose post got deleted or something. Peculiar. *shrug*
Thanks for the heads up though (you and I know who you are! )
Whateva though, I stand behind my thoughts.
When these gender-war threads crop up...which seems to be more or less constantly...I just really wish we'd remember that nobody really has it that easy, we're all in this silly game of survival together, we all have challenges, and having a little compassion for others doesn't cost you a darn thing. And might get you way better results.
I just feel like people make...*gestures vaguely around*...all of this...so much harder than it needs to be.
Yeah we can. It's just that it doesn't matter. The blame versus responsibility thing. Even if I do think that most of my personality stuff, the good, bad and ugly, is a product of my life experiences and environment and upbringing...I can put blame somewhere...that does not mean it isn't my RESPONSIBILITY to grow and learn and do better. Some things weren't our fault. So we don't have to beat ourselves up over that. But we can still grow and be happy and healthy anyhow, we're not tethered to suffering if we choose not to be.
Tough.
Sorry.
Guys don't wear placards or have digital readouts. If being too trusting and letting ourselves be vulnerable is liable to get us in trouble, then guys need to accept that it might take a minute for you to EARN trust. But first you gotta earn that minute, because time is the most finite resource we've all got on this mudball, and nobody wants to waste it.
And frankly I've known guys who could do to learn that lesson too, who were too trusting. Women can take advantage and mess you over too, you know. I think maybe a lot of people could benefit by slowing down, chilling out, and giving connections a bit more time to grow or fail.
As another poster mentioned, you seem to be missing the context of why this tends to be said. Usually it's because of unreciprocated feelings or interest. Often because a man is angry that a woman he is attracted to doesn't want to give him the time of day, for instance...in which case, well, she does not owe him a chance if she isn't interested. It's also a way to make peace with situations like what OP is talking about.
When someone drops you for instance after you've had some intimacy and you're starting to grow a bit of investment, that hurts. It is human nature to think, "I'm not good enough, no man will ever want to commit to me." or "Men only ever want to use women, I will never trust a man again. I'm so done!" (Men do this, too.) But that generalizing, always/never thinking, it's nothing but negative self talk. It's BS really. The last time a man made me feel this way, a main factor in how I made peace with the situation was that I remembered all the times I just wasn't that into some guy, when he was catching feels for me, and how that felt when the shoe was on the other foot. And I was like, well...no one owes anyone anything. So what if I was starting to feel invested? He just wasn't. And that's gotta be ok or else nobody gets to have autonomy or consent. If I am not obligated to keep on with some guy if I'm not feelin' it...neither is that dude obligated to do so with me.
The problem, and one of the reasons this is especially stinging when men do this with women though... It does not come off as "he just wasn't feeling emotionally into me and so he ended our connection" if sex is involved. We are told and told about how men will just con us and use us for sex. Not to trust those scheming men. And to keep ourselves good and pure by not letting men trick us this way. And also, that if we do get "taken" by this con, then our own value is then diminished. We will never be loved, we'll be...what...used nasty chewing gum? Even?... So it's all that shame baggage that comes into play when women talk like the OP described. It's very cultural. So women go for "advice" which in fact, what we really need, is for someone to tell us we are still worth something...because our society has said that we're suckers and losers and we just gave up our value to a smirking charlatan who has seized it and skipped off with it. Now we're damaged, broken, unlovable. We're trained in this from childhood, from schools, parents, religions. It's kinda freakin' heavy stuff. So to be like "What, just get over it, boom-pow" is...well, not very understanding at least I guess.
Quick question: Why do so many women on here sound like the biggest sucker when it comes to men? Seriously, if the guy doesn't text you back, don't sulk over it. If a guy hooks up with you and you ultimately never talk to him again, don't cry. And if a guy is giving you the run around and playing games, why go with it?
Get some self esteem women, you're all looking like a bunch of unconfident single lifers.
I'm not bashing anyone specific either, the more I read these forums, the less anyone can do to help with all their replies. Everyone has baggage, but you really can't expect all these guys you're "dating" to be something special. The problem is expecting something in the first place. Communication people! If it's not mutual then it's not worth it, right?
Boom-Pow.
Women are seen as objects to view and use. These objects have an obligation to be attractive and desirable. That's it. That's all it takes to "win" at being female in this world. You can be a truly wretched person but if you're sexually desirable then you win, yay, go you! You will be complimented on attributes you don't actually possess, celebrated for deeds you never actually did, and rewarded as if you poop rainbows, walk on water and glow in the dark.
This message is implanted in every female person's brain pretty much from birth. To be desired by a male is the end all be all of female existence and gives you the stamp of approval from the cosmos that yes, you have a right to be alive.
Pretty heavy stuff.
So women will pretty much do anything (including killing their kids and/or themselves) to achieve this male approval stuff. That's women's fatal flaw. Sure you can say "not all women! Hey, I shave my pits for ME! I wear makeup and high heels for ME!" Sure. Sure you do. If you were the only person alive you would not be wearing heels because the whole POINT is to be viewed by someone. If there's no one to see you, why on earth would you bother? No one to SEE it means no one to approve of you which means the rules of approval don't even matter and you're the designer of your own reality. Sneakers, flats, or duct tape wrapped around your feet can be as attractive as heels if you decree it is. It's all just based on opinions and right now in the world, male opinions on female attractiveness are *accepted* by females. If you don't accept those criteria and work hard on being sexually desirable, you are at best invisible and at worst attacked for not upholding the social contract.
Why do we not like women who are "frumpy" or "fat"? Because they breached the contract of our expectations for what a woman should look like. Males feel cheated and offended that this woman dared to ignore their criteria for making males happy (imho). How dare they, right? They didn't shave their armpits? For shame! That's not um, "feminine"!
Not to mention of course that hairy armpits are literally feminine because females are mammals and mammals grow body hair and if it is naturally occurring in a species then hello, it's normal. And if it's smellier than how come men have super hairy pits and can use deodorant and all is well and acceptable? How come women's pits are somehow still smelly even after using deodorant if there's *gasp* hair there? (It isn't logical. No logic at all there.)
Not to also mention that males typically don't find fat attractive in a female except when it's stuffed into the breasts. It's still the same substance with the same exact properties (it is soft and squishy, it jiggles, it bounces. By golly, it's FAT!) One method of breast augmentation literally takes fat from other body areas and puts it into the breasts. So the same exact fat that was "ugly" on a thigh is suddenly capable of arousing a man and winning his approval. (The lack of logic hurts.) And BTW that method of augmentation usually needs to be re-done because the body re-absorbs the fat. I told a man once that breasts have fat in them and he looked like I just ran over his puppy with a truck. Like shocked. What did he think was in there, Jell-O? Water?)
It's all just ridiculous. Who is to blame, though? Is it the males or the females or both? We're stuck because humans are not capable of being more than what they currently are. I'm pretty disgusted with the sexes in general and how we live. (And you can't escape it even on Star Trek in the so-called future because it's all the same there, too. So much for forward thinking and innovation. Pfft.)
Honestly also I don't think people should be having sex after just meeting and getting to know someone. You're doing something with a high level of intimacy that leaves you vulnerable and creates the sense of a connection (where there ISNT ONE) and could result in pregnancy or disease etc. I don't think men and women should be using each other like toilets to relieve themselves with. The whole point of dating used to be getting to know someone to decide if you wanted to invest in them and sex was part of something on a higher level that wasn't attainable without first vetting the prospect and deciding on a long term commitment. We take more time researching the amount of carbs we eat than who we share our bodies and emotions with. There's such a lack of substance in human interactions today. Everything is just relieve yourself and look for the next toilet.
Sorry, CamillaB I don't agree with your assessment of casual sex as being in any way "toilet" like. I mean...unless that's what you're into. In which case, uh...your kink is not my kink.
But assuming you just mean relieving a bodily urge with no consideration to the humanity of your partner in an objectifying or dehumanizing manner, no. Don't agree. At all. And having had casual sex says nothing about a woman's self esteem.
Beyond that, having casual love, even if sometimes it's not reciprocated, even if sometimes you get hurt...it does not have to harm your self esteem. I would actually argue that having experiences like that, can make you more resilient. You learn what matters and what doesn't.
Mainly my pushback on the OP (before I realized it was an old thread) was that being human and having feelings and sometimes getting them hurt and having to deal with that a bit before you can pick yourself and dust yourself off...man that doesn't mean you have low self esteem. It might look and feel that way, but for most it is a temporary state.
And trust me...trying to hold back from having sex until you're in a loving relationship, doesn't change this very much. It hurts when you think you have someone who loves you, but then they don't reciprocate the way you thought...it hurts when long relationships end...it hurts when you're in a relationship and you realize that you thought it would get better but it's never going to get better. But no personal growth happens if we are comfortable. Going through pain, helps us become more wise. Loving and losing is part of life. And each time... Well I can say how it has affected me, though I know some folks react differently, getting jaded or feeling that they're worth less as a person...but in my case, every time I've loved (whether casually or with commitment) and lost, I have grown a little more resilient, I've learned that my loves are treasured memories and I'm not afraid to enjoy more, even if it means also experiencing a loss, as I go through my life journey. Emotional pain should not be the end of the world, it should be a refinement, a transformative and growing and learning experience. You can make it that.
I am a woman and I enjoy a good sexual experience. Don't need to justify that with "if there is an emotional bond" or anything. If it's good sex, it's good sex, and I enjoy it. I'll probably feel love, even if it is casual love, but if it doesn't result in a long relationship, that's not toilet like or the end of the world. Two humans coming together, touching minds and bodies even for a brief time...I don't find it disgusting. Sorry that you do.
And if the other person feels they are just relieving themselves, and does not see me as a fellow bright spirit, a human being...well that's really their problem. It says much more about them, than it does about me.
As for pregnancy and disease...yeah, it's really not difficult at all to be a responsible sexually active adult. Very easy to prevent pregnancy as a woman. And a combination of barrier use, and frequent testing appropos to one's activity level, is enough to mitigate STI risks pretty damn well. And people need to stop thinking of these things as some kind of "just world fallacy" social justice punishment for having sex--or specifically, sex they don't approve of. That's not how it works. You could save your virginity for someone and marry them and get pregnant before you're ready or catch something, which maybe they didn't even know they had. It doesn't take tons of partners to catch an STI. Just one. Acting like only promiscuous people get them, is ridiculous and ignorant.
Not that I should be surprised, in this country with its laughable sex ed curriculum in most places.
Anyhow. Women are told a lot of things. Those things don't have to be true. We don't have to cooperate with this fiction.
Factor in age, also, dear. Now in my 30s I could easily get over the negative. In my younger 20s it was a different story.
Older women are more pragmatic (a very good thing).
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