02-16-2014, 02:36 PM
Location: Lemon Bay, Englewood, FL
3,179 posts, read
5,997,474 times
Reputation: 1170
There are various studies showing a variety of manufactures heating results. There is no "best" overall. Three of the pool builders I had quote used only Helicol. I researched and found Fafco panels were also very popular and have good BTU heating ability. But, the pool builder I chose stands by and provides warranty work for Helicol, so that's what I have and so far, after 3 years, we like it.
02-16-2014, 03:38 PM
Location: Cape Coral, FL
25 posts, read
62,080 times
Reputation: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Harbor Hopper
There are various studies showing a variety of manufactures heating results. There is no "best" overall. Three of the pool builders I had quote used only Helicol. I researched and found Fafco panels were also very popular and have good BTU heating ability. But, the pool builder I chose stands by and provides warranty work for Helicol, so that's what I have and so far, after 3 years, we like it.
That's interesting, because as far as I know, the only company that can do warranty work for Heliocol (the manufacturer) is the Heliocol dealer. Pool builders are not able to support the manufacturer's warranty. That's not limited to Heliocol - that's all brands and dealers. The builder probably just calls the dealer when there is a problem, but they don't directly back the warranty.
Lots of pool builders recommend the cheapest equipment possible to seal the deal on a pool sale (not all - there are lots of premium pool builders out there). For example, I can't tell you how many are installing two-speed pumps over variable speed pumps to meet the Florida Building Code just to save a few hundred bucks and show the best quote. They usually just set the pump on the high speed anyway, and some are skirting the law by not even installing two-speed controls. This doesn't do you, the pool owner, any good. Two-speed pumps usually don't do either speed well, they are not well integrated with heating sources, including solar, and they result in lower energy savings than otherwise attainable.
Anyway... I digress. Heliocol is a cheaper brand. There's not other way to put it. The other two major players can't touch their price usually. If you want the cheapest price with acceptable performance, you may be very happy with their product. In fact, they do have many happy customers like Harbor Hopper. If you want the best product, the best performance, and to be even happier, I recommend a full body panel, regardless of what brand you choose.
Finally, you should take all of the studies and ratings with a grain of salt. "Test conditions" are rarely "real world" conditions. Solar panels are not like traditional heating sources. There are many more variables to take into account other than BTU rating. The BTU rating is not as important as for a heat pump or gas heater comparison. However, one thing is certain - a full body panel will always outperform a separated tube panel on average, and especially when it counts (when you need heating the most).
02-17-2014, 06:39 AM
Location: Lemon Bay, Englewood, FL
3,179 posts, read
5,997,474 times
Reputation: 1170
What I meant was that my pool builder did the install themselves, not the dealer, and if there were a problem, they would be the ones to remove/replace any defective components.
I LOVE my 2-speed pump. I actually requested this during the quoting process. A variable speed pump was WAY too expensive. I adjust the setting all the time based on my filtering and heating needs. But I'm a hands-on guy. Most people probably don't even know how to adjust the valves for a solar heating system, let alone flip a toggle on a pump from hi to low.
02-17-2014, 06:53 AM
Location: Cape Coral, FL
25 posts, read
62,080 times
Reputation: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Harbor Hopper
What I meant was that my pool builder did the install themselves, not the dealer, and if there were a problem, they would be the ones to remove/replace any defective components.
I LOVE my 2-speed pump. I actually requested this during the quoting process. A variable speed pump was WAY too expensive. I adjust the setting all the time based on my filtering and heating needs. But I'm a hands-on guy. Most people probably don't even know how to adjust the valves for a solar heating system, let alone flip a toggle on a pump from hi to low.
A Variable Speed pump is inherently more efficient at any speed (brushless DC motor). Why settle for two speeds when you have have over 600 speeds to select? If you do the math, despite the higher initial cost, it's a much better long-term investment. Considering the energy savings and the longer expected service life, a variable speed pump typically costs about half that of a 1.5HP two-speed pump, even when considering the time value of money at a discount rate of 6%... and that's conservative. I've already saved over $1,500 in reduced energy costs with my variable speed pump - far more than the difference between the two options.
The other problem with a two-speed pump is that the high speed may be sized correctly for solar operation, but it is unnecessarily high for virtually all other high-speed tasks (rapid filtration and chemical dispersion, skimming, vacuuming, etc.) On the flip side, a two-speed pump may be sized correctly for a pool initially, but adding solar results in a sub-optimal flow rate. A variable speed pump also let's you "dial in" a perfect speed for heating and features like spillover effects and fountains. Optimizing the balance between heating performance and energy savings can only truly be achieved with a variable speed pump.
You're right in that most people don't understand the first thing about valves, automation, and pump speeds on their own pool. That's where a good automation system that is properly connected and programmed for variable speed pumps comes into play.
02-18-2014, 02:22 PM
1,917 posts, read
2,629,036 times
Reputation: 731
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jason Szumlanski
A Variable Speed pump is inherently more efficient at any speed (brushless DC motor). Why settle for two speeds when you have have over 600 speeds to select? If you do the math, despite the higher initial cost, it's a much better long-term investment. Considering the energy savings and the longer expected service life, a variable speed pump typically costs about half that of a 1.5HP two-speed pump, even when considering the time value of money at a discount rate of 6%... and that's conservative. I've already saved over $1,500 in reduced energy costs with my variable speed pump - far more than the difference between the two options.
The other problem with a two-speed pump is that the high speed may be sized correctly for solar operation, but it is unnecessarily high for virtually all other high-speed tasks (rapid filtration and chemical dispersion, skimming, vacuuming, etc.) On the flip side, a two-speed pump may be sized correctly for a pool initially, but adding solar results in a sub-optimal flow rate. A variable speed pump also let's you "dial in" a perfect speed for heating and features like spillover effects and fountains. Optimizing the balance between heating performance and energy savings can only truly be achieved with a variable speed pump.
You're right in that most people don't understand the first thing about valves, automation, and pump speeds on their own pool. That's where a good automation system that is properly connected and programmed for variable speed pumps comes into play.
$1500 is a lot of money can you please explain further how you came to this amount?
I have a single speed pump and would be interested in making a change if it makes sense.
Thanks Gary
02-18-2014, 02:32 PM
Location: Cape Coral, FL
25 posts, read
62,080 times
Reputation: 22
I'm saving $45 per month. I replaced a two HP pump that cost $73/month to operate 10 hours a day to get the needed turnover. I now spend $28/month to operate my pump 20 hours a day at various speeds to achieve the same turnover and provide enough flow for my salt generator. I've had my pump for three years, which is over $1,500 in electricity savings.
Admittedly, my 20k gallon pool is larger than average in this area. Your savings may vary.
02-19-2014, 05:57 AM
Location: Port Charlotte, FL - Dallas, PA
5,166 posts, read
4,937,562 times
Reputation: 5081
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jason Szumlanski
I'm saving $45 per month. I replaced a two HP pump that cost $73/month to operate 10 hours a day to get the needed turnover. I now spend $28/month to operate my pump 20 hours a day at various speeds to achieve the same turnover and provide enough flow for my salt generator. I've had my pump for three years, which is over $1,500 in electricity savings. .....
How are you figuring out how much it cost to operate the pump? I would surmise that you don't have a meter on the pump itself. Is there a formula to calculate its electrical usage by knowing its volts and maximum amperage on the motor plate? Just because it's rated at, for example 6.7 maximum amps, does it mean that it always operates at that load?
Also, I imagine that it's not as easy as swapping out a single-speed pump for a two-speed or variable-speed pump. They must need some kind of automatic switch to control what speed they operate at. How much does that add to the cost?
Not debating your numbers, just trying to learn so that I can figure it out myself.
02-19-2014, 06:48 AM
Location: Cape Coral, FL
25 posts, read
62,080 times
Reputation: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MikMal
How are you figuring out how much it cost to operate the pump? I would surmise that you don't have a meter on the pump itself. Is there a formula to calculate its electrical usage by knowing its volts and maximum amperage on the motor plate? Just because it's rated at, for example 6.7 maximum amps, does it mean that it always operates at that load?
Also, I imagine that it's not as easy as swapping out a single-speed pump for a two-speed or variable-speed pump. They must need some kind of automatic switch to control what speed they operate at. How much does that add to the cost?
Not debating your numbers, just trying to learn so that I can figure it out myself.
The most accurate way to determine electricity usage is to puts a ammeter on your pump wires, which is relatively easy for a technician to do. The rated specs are at full load, and may not be the most reliable, but can get you in the ballpark. Still, you will not know the power factor, so determining kilowatts is tough.
There are tons of calculators out there that will get you very close. Pentair's is among the best at
Pool Pump Calculator
Many variable speed pumps have electronic timers built right in that set up speeds based on schedules. Overriding scheduled speeds is a button press on the pump. If you have features that require different pump speeds, a controller is advisable, but not always required. You will balance heating performance with energy savings with a suitable controller. If you have an existing automation system, there is a good chance that it is already capable of handling Solar.
02-25-2014, 04:08 AM
4 posts, read
9,026 times
Reputation: 10
There are many types of solar heating systems and first you have to decide that which one you want to install and then order any solar pool heater. about hiring some service you have to call the best service provider in the town and fix the price before starting the work.
02-25-2014, 09:03 PM
Location: Port Charlotte
1,721 posts, read
2,784,149 times
Reputation: 387
Quote:
Originally Posted by
oldfart1947
The one thing I forgot to mention, if I had a tile roof, then I would stay away from solar panels. I would then go with the heat pump.
If you have a tile roof, then you can probably afford the electric bill........LOL
why would you stay away? my last house had a tile roof and when I did s pool I went with the roof solar heater the tubes no trouble in 6 years
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Most Common Occupations - Food preparation and serving related occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Building and grounds cleaning and maintenance occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Personal care and service occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Sales and office occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Sales and related occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Office and administrative support occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Natural resources, construction, and maintenance occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Farming, fishing, and forestry occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Construction and extraction occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Installation, maintenance, and repair occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Production, transportation, and material moving occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Production occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Transportation occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Material moving occupations (%)
People in Group quarters - Institutionalized population (%)
People in Group quarters - Correctional institutions (%)
People in Group quarters - Federal prisons and detention centers (%)
People in Group quarters - Halfway houses (%)
People in Group quarters - Local jails and other confinement facilities (including police lockups) (%)
People in Group quarters - Military disciplinary barracks (%)
People in Group quarters - State prisons (%)
People in Group quarters - Other types of correctional institutions (%)
People in Group quarters - Nursing homes (%)
People in Group quarters - Hospitals/wards, hospices, and schools for the handicapped (%)
People in Group quarters - Hospitals/wards and hospices for chronically ill (%)
People in Group quarters - Hospices or homes for chronically ill (%)
People in Group quarters - Military hospitals or wards for chronically ill (%)
People in Group quarters - Other hospitals or wards for chronically ill (%)
People in Group quarters - Hospitals or wards for drug/alcohol abuse (%)
People in Group quarters - Mental (Psychiatric) hospitals or wards (%)
People in Group quarters - Schools, hospitals, or wards for the mentally retarded (%)
People in Group quarters - Schools, hospitals, or wards for the physically handicapped (%)
People in Group quarters - Institutions for the deaf (%)
People in Group quarters - Institutions for the blind (%)
People in Group quarters - Orthopedic wards and institutions for the physically handicapped (%)
People in Group quarters - Wards in general hospitals for patients who have no usual home elsewhere (%)
People in Group quarters - Wards in military hospitals for patients who have no usual home elsewhere (%)
People in Group quarters - Juvenile institutions (%)
People in Group quarters - Long-term care (%)
People in Group quarters - Homes for abused, dependent, and neglected children (%)
People in Group quarters - Residential treatment centers for emotionally disturbed children (%)
People in Group quarters - Training schools for juvenile delinquents (%)
People in Group quarters - Short-term care, detention or diagnostic centers for delinquent children (%)
People in Group quarters - Type of juvenile institution unknown (%)
People in Group quarters - Noninstitutionalized population (%)
People in Group quarters - College dormitories (includes college quarters off campus) (%)
People in Group quarters - Military quarters (%)
People in Group quarters - On base (%)
People in Group quarters - Barracks, unaccompanied personnel housing (UPH), (Enlisted/Officer), ;and similar group living quarters for military personnel (%)
People in Group quarters - Transient quarters for temporary residents (%)
People in Group quarters - Military ships (%)
People in Group quarters - Group homes (%)
People in Group quarters - Homes or halfway houses for drug/alcohol abuse (%)
People in Group quarters - Homes for the mentally ill (%)
People in Group quarters - Homes for the mentally retarded (%)
People in Group quarters - Homes for the physically handicapped (%)
People in Group quarters - Other group homes (%)
People in Group quarters - Religious group quarters (%)
People in Group quarters - Dormitories (%)
People in Group quarters - Agriculture workers' dormitories on farms (%)
People in Group quarters - Job Corps and vocational training facilities (%)
People in Group quarters - Other workers' dormitories (%)
People in Group quarters - Crews of maritime vessels (%)
People in Group quarters - Other nonhousehold living situations (%)
People in Group quarters - Other noninstitutional group quarters (%)
Residents speaking English at home (%)
Residents speaking English at home - Born in the United States (%)
Residents speaking English at home - Native, born elsewhere (%)
Residents speaking English at home - Foreign born (%)
Residents speaking Spanish at home (%)
Residents speaking Spanish at home - Born in the United States (%)
Residents speaking Spanish at home - Native, born elsewhere (%)
Residents speaking Spanish at home - Foreign born (%)
Residents speaking other language at home (%)
Residents speaking other language at home - Born in the United States (%)
Residents speaking other language at home - Native, born elsewhere (%)
Residents speaking other language at home - Foreign born (%)
Class of Workers - Employee of private company (%)
Class of Workers - Self-employed in own incorporated business (%)
Class of Workers - Private not-for-profit wage and salary workers (%)
Class of Workers - Local government workers (%)
Class of Workers - State government workers (%)
Class of Workers - Federal government workers (%)
Class of Workers - Self-employed workers in own not incorporated business and Unpaid family workers (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Utility gas (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Bottled, tank, or LP gas (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Electricity (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Fuel oil, kerosene, etc. (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Coal or coke (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Wood (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Solar energy (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Other fuel (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - No fuel used (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Utility gas (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Bottled, tank, or LP gas (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Electricity (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Fuel oil, kerosene, etc. (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Coal or coke (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Wood (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Solar energy (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Other fuel (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - No fuel used (%)
Armed forces status - In Armed Forces (%)
Armed forces status - Civilian (%)
Armed forces status - Civilian - Veteran (%)
Armed forces status - Civilian - Nonveteran (%)
Fatal accidents locations in years 2005-2021
Fatal accidents locations in 2005
Fatal accidents locations in 2006
Fatal accidents locations in 2007
Fatal accidents locations in 2008
Fatal accidents locations in 2009
Fatal accidents locations in 2010
Fatal accidents locations in 2011
Fatal accidents locations in 2012
Fatal accidents locations in 2013
Fatal accidents locations in 2014
Fatal accidents locations in 2015
Fatal accidents locations in 2016
Fatal accidents locations in 2017
Fatal accidents locations in 2018
Fatal accidents locations in 2019
Fatal accidents locations in 2020
Fatal accidents locations in 2021
Alcohol use - People drinking some alcohol every month (%)
Alcohol use - People not drinking at all (%)
Alcohol use - Average days/month drinking alcohol
Alcohol use - Average drinks/week
Alcohol use - Average days/year people drink much
Audiometry - Average condition of hearing (%)
Audiometry - People that can hear a whisper from across a quiet room (%)
Audiometry - People that can hear normal voice from across a quiet room (%)
Audiometry - Ears ringing, roaring, buzzing (%)
Audiometry - Had a job exposure to loud noise (%)
Audiometry - Had off-work exposure to loud noise (%)
Blood Pressure & Cholesterol - Has high blood pressure (%)
Blood Pressure & Cholesterol - Checking blood pressure at home (%)
Blood Pressure & Cholesterol - Frequently checking blood cholesterol (%)
Blood Pressure & Cholesterol - Has high cholesterol level (%)
Consumer Behavior - Money monthly spent on food at supermarket/grocery store
Consumer Behavior - Money monthly spent on food at other stores
Consumer Behavior - Money monthly spent on eating out
Consumer Behavior - Money monthly spent on carryout/delivered foods
Consumer Behavior - Income spent on food at supermarket/grocery store (%)
Consumer Behavior - Income spent on food at other stores (%)
Consumer Behavior - Income spent on eating out (%)
Consumer Behavior - Income spent on carryout/delivered foods (%)
Current Health Status - General health condition (%)
Current Health Status - Blood donors (%)
Current Health Status - Has blood ever tested for HIV virus (%)
Current Health Status - Left-handed people (%)
Dermatology - People using sunscreen (%)
Diabetes - Diabetics (%)
Diabetes - Had a blood test for high blood sugar (%)
Diabetes - People taking insulin (%)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Diet health (%)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Milk product consumption (# of products/month)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Meals not home prepared (#/week)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Meals from fast food or pizza place (#/week)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Ready-to-eat foods (#/month)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Frozen meals/pizza (#/month)
Drug Use - People that ever used marijuana or hashish (%)
Drug Use - Ever used hard drugs (%)
Drug Use - Ever used any form of cocaine (%)
Drug Use - Ever used heroin (%)
Drug Use - Ever used methamphetamine (%)
Health Insurance - People covered by health insurance (%)
Kidney Conditions-Urology - Avg. # of times urinating at night
Medical Conditions - People with asthma (%)
Medical Conditions - People with anemia (%)
Medical Conditions - People with psoriasis (%)
Medical Conditions - People with overweight (%)
Medical Conditions - Elderly people having difficulties in thinking or remembering (%)
Medical Conditions - People who ever received blood transfusion (%)
Medical Conditions - People having trouble seeing even with glass/contacts (%)
Medical Conditions - People with arthritis (%)
Medical Conditions - People with gout (%)
Medical Conditions - People with congestive heart failure (%)
Medical Conditions - People with coronary heart disease (%)
Medical Conditions - People with angina pectoris (%)
Medical Conditions - People who ever had heart attack (%)
Medical Conditions - People who ever had stroke (%)
Medical Conditions - People with emphysema (%)
Medical Conditions - People with thyroid problem (%)
Medical Conditions - People with chronic bronchitis (%)
Medical Conditions - People with any liver condition (%)
Medical Conditions - People who ever had cancer or malignancy (%)
Mental Health - People who have little interest in doing things (%)
Mental Health - People feeling down, depressed, or hopeless (%)
Mental Health - People who have trouble sleeping or sleeping too much (%)
Mental Health - People feeling tired or having little energy (%)
Mental Health - People with poor appetite or overeating (%)
Mental Health - People feeling bad about themself (%)
Mental Health - People who have trouble concentrating on things (%)
Mental Health - People moving or speaking slowly or too fast (%)
Mental Health - People having thoughts they would be better off dead (%)
Oral Health - Average years since last visit a dentist
Oral Health - People embarrassed because of mouth (%)
Oral Health - People with gum disease (%)
Oral Health - General health of teeth and gums (%)
Oral Health - Average days a week using dental floss/device
Oral Health - Average days a week using mouthwash for dental problem
Oral Health - Average number of teeth
Pesticide Use - Households using pesticides to control insects (%)
Pesticide Use - Households using pesticides to kill weeds (%)
Physical Activity - People doing vigorous-intensity work activities (%)
Physical Activity - People doing moderate-intensity work activities (%)
Physical Activity - People walking or bicycling (%)
Physical Activity - People doing vigorous-intensity recreational activities (%)
Physical Activity - People doing moderate-intensity recreational activities (%)
Physical Activity - Average hours a day doing sedentary activities
Physical Activity - Average hours a day watching TV or videos
Physical Activity - Average hours a day using computer
Physical Functioning - People having limitations keeping them from working (%)
Physical Functioning - People limited in amount of work they can do (%)
Physical Functioning - People that need special equipment to walk (%)
Physical Functioning - People experiencing confusion/memory problems (%)
Physical Functioning - People requiring special healthcare equipment (%)
Prescription Medications - Average number of prescription medicines taking
Preventive Aspirin Use - Adults 40+ taking low-dose aspirin (%)
Reproductive Health - Vaginal deliveries (%)
Reproductive Health - Cesarean deliveries (%)
Reproductive Health - Deliveries resulted in a live birth (%)
Reproductive Health - Pregnancies resulted in a delivery (%)
Reproductive Health - Women breastfeeding newborns (%)
Reproductive Health - Women that had a hysterectomy (%)
Reproductive Health - Women that had both ovaries removed (%)
Reproductive Health - Women that have ever taken birth control pills (%)
Reproductive Health - Women taking birth control pills (%)
Reproductive Health - Women that have ever used Depo-Provera or injectables (%)
Reproductive Health - Women that have ever used female hormones (%)
Sexual Behavior - People 18+ that ever had sex (vaginal, anal, or oral) (%)
Sexual Behavior - Males 18+ that ever had vaginal sex with a woman (%)
Sexual Behavior - Males 18+ that ever performed oral sex on a woman (%)
Sexual Behavior - Males 18+ that ever had anal sex with a woman (%)
Sexual Behavior - Males 18+ that ever had any sex with a man (%)
Sexual Behavior - Females 18+ that ever had vaginal sex with a man (%)
Sexual Behavior - Females 18+ that ever performed oral sex on a man (%)
Sexual Behavior - Females 18+ that ever had anal sex with a man (%)
Sexual Behavior - Females 18+ that ever had any kind of sex with a woman (%)
Sexual Behavior - Average age people first had sex
Sexual Behavior - Average number of female sex partners in lifetime (males 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of female vaginal sex partners in lifetime (males 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average age people first performed oral sex on a woman (18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of woman performed oral sex on in lifetime (18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of male sex partners in lifetime (males 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of male anal sex partners in lifetime (males 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average age people first performed oral sex on a man (18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of male oral sex partners in lifetime (18+)
Sexual Behavior - People using protection when performing oral sex (%)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of times people have vaginal or anal sex a year
Sexual Behavior - People having sex without condom (%)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of male sex partners in lifetime (females 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of male vaginal sex partners in lifetime (females 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of female sex partners in lifetime (females 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Circumcised males 18+ (%)
Sleep Disorders - Average hours sleeping at night
Sleep Disorders - People that has trouble sleeping (%)
Smoking-Cigarette Use - People smoking cigarettes (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ having problems with smell (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ having problems with taste (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ that ever had wisdom teeth removed (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ that ever had tonsils teeth removed (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ that ever had a loss of consciousness because of a head injury (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ that ever had a broken nose or other serious injury to face or skull (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ that ever had two or more sinus infections (%)
Weight - Average height (inches)
Weight - Average weight (pounds)
Weight - Average BMI
Weight - People that are obese (%)
Weight - People that ever were obese (%)
Weight - People trying to lose weight (%)