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I think there are 3 groups of people:
1. Those who will never take public transportation no matter what
2. Those who will take public transportation if at all possible
3. Those who prefer to drive but will take public transportation if the roads get too clogged and/or gas gets too expensive.
From group 1, there are people who are wed to their cars and want them available to them at all hours of the day. I knew people who were given essentially a free public transportation subsidy from work who still drove their cars to work (paying for gas and parking).
From group 2, there are those people who are environmentally conscious plus enough transplants here from big cities who are used to good, public transportation who would use it in a heartbeat if it were available.
From group 3, there are people who are willing to forgo the convenience of driving for the ease of public transportation dependng on how bad the traffic will become as the Triangle grows and/or how high gas will cost in the future.
The cities obviously shouldn't build for group 1. And group 2 isn't big enough alone to support light rail/public transport. I think the key to whether we need "light rail" or other types of public transportation is dependent on group 3. For that, the 'powers that be' have to accurately figure out what the traffic needs will be in the next 25 years. No one predicted the explosion of growth that went out to Loudoun County from DC. And now DC is trying to play catch-up. There will be new Metro stops out that way in the next 5 years. But they are at least 15 years too late. In the meantime, rush hour is 4 hours in the morning and up to 5 hours in the afternoon. Is this where the Triangle is headed without public transportation (other than buses)? Based on the growth that has been seen here over the past 10 years, I guess it is possible. I don't know enough about the area yet since I am a newcomer. But the idea certainly seems to warrant some consideration if nothing else.
I agree with this but never stated it quite so clearly. I thought of G1 as G3 with a very high tolerance . But you're right; there are people who will never take it.
The numbers stand at 15,000 riders per day on the Charlotte rail. There are 1.75 million people in the Charlotte Metro. Where is the concrete benefit for anywhere close to a majority of the people that warrants the expenditure? Why would it be any different in the triangle which has even less density than Charlotte?
The numbers stand at 15,000 riders per day on the Charlotte rail. There are 1.75 million people in the Charlotte Metro. Where is the concrete benefit for anywhere close to a majority of the people that warrants the expenditure? Why would it be any different in the triangle which has even less density than Charlotte?
Well, seeing how more than 20,000 people a day already step foot on to a Durham (DATA) bus, yes, I can see it being different in the Triangle.
Well, seeing how more than 20,000 people a day already step foot on to a Durham (DATA) bus, yes, I can see it being different in the Triangle.
Fiscal year 2011 had a ridership of 5.6 million for DATA. (This number is from a pro public transit site http://www.durhamorangefriendsoftran...stmentPlan.pdf )To be fair, I divided by 250 days to account for weekends, then divided by 2 to account for a leave and return trip puts the ridership at ~11,000. Durham probably has better ridership per capita than Raleigh, but I have not looked at those numbers. It seems CH and Durham are well ahead of the curve on public transit. I will state that if Orange and Durham counties want to get together and build a railway, without federal funds, I would have no argument as I do not reside in those counties. I will even say that side of the triangle has a better layout to implement the rail system than say, Wake or Johnston county. I do however find it hard to believe a city metro of 1.75 million with 15,000 light rail riders per day would have substantially less riders than a city metro with 1 million.
I hope I am not coming across as purposefully combative, as text only debating can miss the actual mood of the words. I am a numbers person, and just like to go through the probabilities and get all of the facts. I respect everyones opinion on this subject as we all have different lifestyles and needs. I also love to think outside the box for different solutions before sticking with what "they have there".
Fiscal year 2011 had a ridership of 5.6 million for DATA. (This number is from a pro public transit site http://www.durhamorangefriendsoftran...stmentPlan.pdf )To be fair, I divided by 250 days to account for weekends, then divided by 2 to account for a leave and return trip puts the ridership at ~11,000. Durham probably has better ridership per capita than Raleigh, but I have not looked at those numbers. It seems CH and Durham are well ahead of the curve on public transit. I will state that if Orange and Durham counties want to get together and build a railway, without federal funds, I would have no argument as I do not reside in those counties. I will even say that side of the triangle has a better layout to implement the rail system than say, Wake or Johnston county. I do however find it hard to believe a city metro of 1.75 million with 15,000 light rail riders per day would have substantially less riders than a city metro with 1 million.
I hope I am not coming across as purposefully combative, as text only debating can miss the actual mood of the words. I am a numbers person, and just like to go through the probabilities and get all of the facts. I respect everyones opinion on this subject as we all have different lifestyles and needs. I also love to think outside the box for different solutions before sticking with what "they have there".
Yes, as you confirmed, ridership is at around 22,000 a day. More than 20,000, right?
So "your" federal dollars shouldn't be used to pay for light rail in Orange and Durham. But "my" federal dollars should be used to pay for the limited access freeway around North Raleigh?
Again, I see absolutely no logic in the calls that federal tax dollars should be spent on roads and not light rail. Similarly, I see no reason on why folks should be against using local tax dollars to build and maintain city roads, but not light rail (you seem to have no problem with this but others do).
Yes, as you confirmed, ridership is at around 22,000 a day. More than 20,000, right?
So "your" federal dollars shouldn't be used to pay for light rail in Orange and Durham. But "my" federal dollars should be used to pay for the limited access freeway around North Raleigh?
Again, I see absolutely no logic in the calls that federal tax dollars should be spent on roads and not light rail. Similarly, I see no reason on why folks should be against using local tax dollars to build and maintain city roads, but not light rail (you seem to have no problem with this but others do).
22,000 riders, but 11,000 people. It is safe to assume someone that rides the bus to a destination also takes a return trip.
You are correct, I am not in favor of using federal funds for any local transit, be it roads or otherwise. I do support and agree with using federal funds to build and maintain interstates such as 40, 85, and 95 though.
The local areas, regions, and state should foot their own bills to be fair across the country. The feds like playing parent and giving out allowances however, so unlikely for that to ever happen.
How about we think bigger and better than trains? A Chinook Model 234 carries 44 passengers in comfort. Create depots adjacent to the dense working areas and use connector busses for the short voyage to the office. We could get from about anywhere in the triangle to RTP in 5-15 minutes. A fleet of 100 or so should suffice. Talk about creating a buzz for the triangle!
The numbers stand at 15,000 riders per day on the Charlotte rail. There are 1.75 million people in the Charlotte Metro. Where is the concrete benefit for anywhere close to a majority of the people that warrants the expenditure? Why would it be any different in the triangle which has even less density than Charlotte?
It's a chicken and egg issue. The line is currently 9.6-mile long. So it only benefits people near the route. Assuming the route to UNCC is built will dramatically increase the ridership. People that live there can take it uptown. Plus people in surrounding areas can park-and-ride and not have to worry about driving into town and then finding a parking spot.
Also in the summer of 2009, a CATS survey indicated that 72 percent of Lynx riders did not use public transportation prior to its completion. So people will use it, it just has to expand. There are enough areas of interest to connect by light rail and increase the ridership.
People will use it, but it just needs the investing.
I read this article a while ago and thought it made some interesting points about mass transit and making it more effective and/or more palatable to people. It compares two different schools of thought: make it more reliable/efficient or make it more pleasant to use. Both article and many of the comments are worthy of a read:
The numbers stand at 15,000 riders per day on the Charlotte rail. There are 1.75 million people in the Charlotte Metro. Where is the concrete benefit for anywhere close to a majority of the people that warrants the expenditure? Why would it be any different in the triangle which has even less density than Charlotte?
because it is a great asset for attracting business and the coveted creative class (young, single, artsy, LGB, affluent, and well-educated).
The numbers stand at 15,000 riders per day on the Charlotte rail. There are 1.75 million people in the Charlotte Metro. Where is the concrete benefit for anywhere close to a majority of the people that warrants the expenditure? Why would it be any different in the triangle which has even less density than Charlotte?
You can't directly correlate cities just based on population numbers and expect the same result.
The types of people within the populations is quite different. In the Triangle for example we have a huge technical workforce along with a substantial number of university students. The young and tech savvy crowd in the Triangle area are probably more inclined to utilize mass transit than other areas.
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. But you're right; there are people who will never take it.
