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Old 02-14-2012, 03:41 PM
 
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^Interesting.

Do any of you know the estimated population of Raleigh in 2020?
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Old 02-14-2012, 04:37 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rnc2mbfl View Post
Actually downtown Raleigh is currently defined and marketed as 5 Districts; Glenwood South is one of them. The city's recent 2030 comprehensive plan also outlines downtown's boundary. I have attached that plan here. So, the projects in Glenwood South are officially downtown projects while the one at Hillsborough and Morgan is just West of the "official" boundary. You are correct that Cameron Village's project is outside of downtown by about 1/2 mile or so.
All that said, how people perceive DT Raleigh is probably fuzzier depending on individual perspective. I know some people who think of almost all of ITB to be "Downtown" while others with a different perspective think of it as only the immediate corridors adjacent to the State Government complexes and Fayetteville St.
In the end, whether officially downtown or not, all of the new projects are going to further downtown's credentials and activity. I am really excited for them to be completed. The towers "lost" are not the death knell of DT. It's people that are going to make a difference and all these DT projects will bring new residents to the area.
Interesting, rnc2mbfl. I remember hearing about the 2030 comp plan that was adopted a couple years ago, and I saw a big land-use plan map of the entire city, but I hadn't seen the map of the downtown area that you attached. It's got me wondering how they decided what to include as part of downtown Raleigh. I could perhaps concede the inclusion of the Glenwood South corridor out to St. Mary's Street (though personally I still don't think of it as "downtown"), but I just don't buy the arm of downtown that they show shooting out west in the strip between Hillsborough Street and the railroad tracks all the way out to Park Avenue. That arm actually does take in part of the Hillsborough & Morgan property, by the way, but not all of it. Don't get me wrong, I love that area of the city, but I just don't think it's part of downtown Raleigh. I also don't think of downtown as extending as far north as Wade Avenue, either, although I know there are hopes for massive redevelopment of that stretch of Capital Boulevard between Wade and Peace Street that may eventually make it more downtown-y. But again, this entire discussion of what is or isn't included in "downtown Raleigh" is mostly subjective, and all academic anyway.

Personally, what I think of as "downtown Raleigh" is the original core of the city: the rectangular area bounded (at least roughly) by North Street, South Street, East Street, and West Street. I might give or take a block or two in a few place, such as excluding the portion of Oakwood in the northeast corner of that rectangle, but extending the rectangle up to Peace Street to take in Halifax Mall and the Archdale Building at the north end. But just to me, that's what downtown is. And considering downtown that way, I'm not sure you're right that "[i]n the end, whether officially downtown or not, all of the new projects [that you mentioned] are going to further downtown's credentials and activity." I don't know that the development occurring from Glenwood South westward really does benefit the core of downtown Raleigh (other than just benefiting the entire city in general), and I think there may be times and situations when it actually detracts from it, don't you? Admittedly, I haven't studied it in any depth, so I don't know for sure, but that's my impression.

When I see a lot of Raleigh's new-urbanist development focusing on areas outside of the core downtown area, such as Cameron Village and North Hills, I have concerns sometimes about Raleigh following a pattern something like Atlanta's, whereby the historic "downtown" area becomes largely by-passed by the secondary, surrogate downtown CBD in Midtown Atlanta, as well as in Atlanta's case, another surrogate CBD in Buckhead. Raleigh is a long, long way from that, of course, and probably won't get anything like that in your or my lifetime. But there is a risk of the commitment some of us are trying to make to push for density and urbanness in central Raleigh being subverted by getting too spread-out into satellite centers rather than concentrated on the core. But hey, that's America. And any development that goes into Cameron Village or North Hills is undoubtedly better in a lot of ways than if it went out to the exurban fringes instead.

Last edited by tompope; 02-14-2012 at 06:03 PM..
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Old 02-15-2012, 08:58 AM
 
Location: South Beach and DT Raleigh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMOREBOY View Post
^Interesting.

Do any of you know the estimated population of Raleigh in 2020?
The state has county estimates here: SAS Output
This does not speak to Raleigh's growth but I have seen numbers in the 500,000-525,000 range tossed around from time to time. Factors at play are annexation (there's but so much land that Raleigh can annex because of its municipal neighbors), density and the city's ability to infill within its existing footprint, the national economy, etc.
I thought that I read somewhere that Raleigh ETJ, inclusive of the current city limits, is about 188 square miles. Someone please correct me if I am wrong. I can't find the number right now!!!! Currently, the city is about 144 square miles. If the city stayed in the 2800 ppl/square mile range and annexed to the full 188 square miles, that would put Raleigh just above 526,000. If the city annexed the land and added just 100 ppl/square mile to its average, that would put the city above 545,000. I think it's possible to move the metric up 100 ppl per square mile in a decade but I don't see it moving much more unless there was some serious effort to provide massive amounts of high density housing in key areas of the city.
To put this in perspective, in the last decade, Miami City proper added over 1000 ppl per square mile within its land area.
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Old 02-15-2012, 09:49 AM
 
Location: South Beach and DT Raleigh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tompope View Post
Interesting, rnc2mbfl. I remember hearing about the 2030 comp plan that was adopted a couple years ago, and I saw a big land-use plan map of the entire city, but I hadn't seen the map of the downtown area that you attached. It's got me wondering how they decided what to include as part of downtown Raleigh. I could perhaps concede the inclusion of the Glenwood South corridor out to St. Mary's Street (though personally I still don't think of it as "downtown"), but I just don't buy the arm of downtown that they show shooting out west in the strip between Hillsborough Street and the railroad tracks all the way out to Park Avenue. That arm actually does take in part of the Hillsborough & Morgan property, by the way, but not all of it. Don't get me wrong, I love that area of the city, but I just don't think it's part of downtown Raleigh. I also don't think of downtown as extending as far north as Wade Avenue, either, although I know there are hopes for massive redevelopment of that stretch of Capital Boulevard between Wade and Peace Street that may eventually make it more downtown-y. But again, this entire discussion of what is or isn't included in "downtown Raleigh" is mostly subjective, and all academic anyway.

Personally, what I think of as "downtown Raleigh" is the original core of the city: the rectangular area bounded (at least roughly) by North Street, South Street, East Street, and West Street. I might give or take a block or two in a few place, such as excluding the portion of Oakwood in the northeast corner of that rectangle, but extending the rectangle up to Peace Street to take in Halifax Mall and the Archdale Building at the north end. But just to me, that's what downtown is. And considering downtown that way, I'm not sure you're right that "[i]n the end, whether officially downtown or not, all of the new projects [that you mentioned] are going to further downtown's credentials and activity." I don't know that the development occurring from Glenwood South westward really does benefit the core of downtown Raleigh (other than just benefiting the entire city in general), and I think there may be times and situations when it actually detracts from it, don't you? Admittedly, I haven't studied it in any depth, so I don't know for sure, but that's my impression.

When I see a lot of Raleigh's new-urbanist development focusing on areas outside of the core downtown area, such as Cameron Village and North Hills, I have concerns sometimes about Raleigh following a pattern something like Atlanta's, whereby the historic "downtown" area becomes largely by-passed by the secondary, surrogate downtown CBD in Midtown Atlanta, as well as in Atlanta's case, another surrogate CBD in Buckhead. Raleigh is a long, long way from that, of course, and probably won't get anything like that in your or my lifetime. But there is a risk of the commitment some of us are trying to make to push for density and urbanness in central Raleigh being subverted by getting too spread-out into satellite centers rather than concentrated on the core. But hey, that's America. And any development that goes into Cameron Village or North Hills is undoubtedly better in a lot of ways than if it went out to the exurban fringes instead.
Interesting thoughts Tompope; thanks for sharing. There's so much to respond to and I thought of slicing and dicing your post in sections but, frankly, I am just too lazy to do that right now. So, I will do my best to respond in block form. As someone whose Raleigh home is in Glenwood South, I make my predictions about DT's credentials based on how I actually live in the area. While not in the very center of the city core (say, Fayetteville St for example), I walk to it all the time. If it's raining or if I am just in the right place at the right time, I will hop on the RLine to get there instead. My point is that I don't feel disconnected by any stretch of the imagination from the very central core of the city. The biggest obstacle is walking the hill up Glenwood to Hillsborough Street. As Glenwood South adds hundreds more residents in the two new urban apartment complexes being built now, I just don't see them abandoning the very core of the city. In fact, I see the opposite. I see them fueling the vitality of the core in the afterhours/weekends in much the same way that I see the government and business people fueling it 9-5, M-F. To put this in perspective, I can walk to the very core of the city center faster than my parents in North Raleigh can walk to the nearest strip center that's supposed to be "convenient" to where they live. Okay...that's not fair of me. My parents are elderly and they can't walk very fast....but you get my point, right? We are not talking about any great physical distance like exists between DT and Midtown Atlanta.

I agree that the tentacle of land heading west on Hillsborough doesn't feel the same to me as Glenwood South but I suppose it's included in the 2030 plan and DT boundary map because of its high density residential credentials??? To its north is St. Mary's and Cameron Park. To its south is Boylan Heights and Central Prison. Maybe it's included in "downtown" because it doesn't map well to either? In any event, it does begin to link the core of Raleigh to the NC State area immediately to the west. But, it's clear that the city's "grid" essentially evaporates once passed the west side of St. Mary's street and an early 20th century form of suburbia emerges.

IMO, Raleigh is VERY fortunate to have significant residential development on practically all immediate sides of its core. I see the existing and potential development on all sides feeding the vitality of the core. Of course, the very core will also see additional residential develop but, lets face it, that's not the main mission of the very central core of the city.
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Old 02-20-2012, 06:08 PM
 
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I was driving through Raleigh this past weekend to get to Charlotte (for some reason my GPS told me to take 440 instead of 540 which was interesting) and I saw a crane up on Glendale, what's being constructed there?
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Old 02-20-2012, 06:14 PM
 
Location: South Beach and DT Raleigh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMOREBOY View Post
I was driving through Raleigh this past weekend to get to Charlotte (for some reason my GPS told me to take 440 instead of 540 which was interesting) and I saw a crane up on Glendale, what's being constructed there?
Do you mean Glenwood? If so, do you mean near its intersection with 440?
BTW, 440 is a much prettier drive than 540 anyway! I am assuming that you took the northern arc of the Beltline? The southern stretch is no longer called 440, just 40.
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Old 02-20-2012, 09:59 PM
 
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Yes Glenwood, thanks. Do you know whats under construction? It was night when I drove pass it so I didn't see anything except the crane.
And it really is a much more appealing drive, but when I was heading home I said "appealing or time?" and took 540 lol
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Old 02-28-2012, 04:31 PM
 
Location: Raleigh, NC
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there's a hampton inn and suites going up on glenwood south and also at glenwood by 440 and crabtree valley mall.
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Old 02-29-2012, 12:35 PM
 
Location: NC
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Check out Veridea in Apex by doing a google search. Not started yet but most of the permissions have been given.
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