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I wonder if anyone who has lived here more than 10-15 years is excited about toll roads.
Me. I like having options.
(Actually to say I'm "excited about toll roads" would not be correct, I'd be excited if someone took steps to solve the real problems behind the congestion, but failing that I do like the idea of having the option of tolled lanes in addition to the existing free 540 lanes. I'm not excited about the construction involved in widening it).
(Actually to say I'm "excited about toll roads" would not be correct, I'd be excited if someone took steps to solve the real problems behind the congestion, but failing that I do like the idea of having the option of tolled lanes in addition to the existing free 540 lanes. I'm not excited about the construction involved in widening it).
Did you live someplace before, as an adult, where you had bad traffic and toll roads?
I don't want ANY toll roads. My experience is that they become a way for the government to make a money grab.
And, they'll never go away. Toll roads suck.
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Did you live someplace before, as an adult, where you had bad traffic and toll roads?
I don't want ANY toll roads. My experience is that they become a way for the government to make a money grab.
And, they'll never go away. Toll roads suck.
Yes, I did. The government will grab the money one way or another, through either taxes or tolls, take your pick. Tolls do sometimes go away, but what happens in one state does not necessarily mean it will happen here, so I'm not sure drawing comparisons is worthwhile, as it starts to get into whether you believe individual states should even be able to decide this or if its a federal issue.
It seems to me that what's on the table with 540 is that one of two options: either leave it as-is, or add more lanes and toll the new lanes. That's not to say the options can never change, it's just that this is what is proposed. Given those two options, which do you prefer? Keep the congestion, or open optional toll lanes for those who want to use them? Keep in mind, even the folks on the free lanes benefit from the reduced traffic, as some of the existing (and future growth) traffic would be diverted to the the toll lanes. I see the addition of toll lanes as a win-win for both those who use the new lanes and those who prefer to keep using the current ones. Nothing I've seen indicates anyone is planning to toll lanes that are currently free to use.
Growth predictions can be tricky, and even if they did overbuild to allow plenty of room for all future growth, it's unlikely that anyone wants to pay for overbuilding. Taxpayers/toll payers would have just complained that its more than is needed, kind of like they're complaining in this thread currently.
Growth projections are definitely not easy. On the other hand, the fact that anyone thinks that at a major highway junction, some how half the cars going in one direction don't take the road in the opposite direction so having an exit with only one lane instead of two is appropriate and I can think of three places here and one in Charlotte where they've done it. The fact that they cut the 540 to 40west back down is even more ridiculous.
I am not totally against tolls, but the fact that the NCDOT has built roads all over the state, funded by The Triangle and Charlotte while both has got to stop. Hopefully the new funding plan cuts back on that shift somewhat. If the money had been used here we would not have the somewhat artificial need for tolls.
NCDOT should take blame for poor planning. Take the four-lane design of I-40 between Davis Drive in RTP and 15/501 as an example. It was monumentally stupid and had to be fixed less than 15 years later at very high cost. But on the other hand, I-40 was originally planned in the 1970s when four lanes were sufficient; it was politicians, not NCDOT, who delayed the project for 10 years.
And it's your representatives in the General Assembly, not NCDOT, who deliberately diverted money from the metro areas to the sticks over the last 30 years.
I do believe that NCDOT is getting better about planning, but it takes 10-20 years for that to be noticeable.
As for tolls, it's just a question of money. When gas reached $3 a gallon, revenues from the gas tax leveled off because people began buying more fuel-efficient cars than they had been buying. Roads cost money, and the money has to come from somewhere. Unless your representatives in the General Assembly shift a lot of money from other state departments to NCDOT -- good luck with that -- it's a question of either (a) raising taxes, (b) imposing tolls, or (c) fighting over which roads get built and which don't. Take your pick.
Growth projections are definitely not easy. On the other hand, the fact that anyone thinks that at a major highway junction, some how half the cars going in one direction don't take the road in the opposite direction so having an exit with only one lane instead of two is appropriate and I can think of three places here and one in Charlotte where they've done it. The fact that they cut the 540 to 40west back down is even more ridiculous.
I'd be all for trying the ramp solutions they've proposed, I'm just not sure that's a solution to handle future growth as well. FWIW, I wasn't disagreeing with a previous power about the NCDOT making some really stupid moves, I just didn't want to see this thread drift too far from discussing constructive solutions to I-540 congestion, and there are probably a lot of things worth complaining about the DOT in so it might warrant its own thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sherifftruman
I am not totally against tolls, but the fact that the NCDOT has built roads all over the state, funded by The Triangle and Charlotte while both has got to stop. Hopefully the new funding plan cuts back on that shift somewhat. If the money had been used here we would not have the somewhat artificial need for tolls.
I see a state agency's task of serving an entire state as being a challenging one - folks that live in the Triangle and Charlotte often need to drive to other parts of the state as well. Do you have anything citing the ongoing misallocation of funds to road projects in less populous areas? I'd be interested in reading more about that one. I have friends in different areas of the state that constantly complain their infrastructure is not being taken care of as well as the bigger cities like Raleigh, so I wonder if there are specific areas that have it good, if so why it is is good, or if its a grass is greener sort of thing.
As for tolls, it's just a question of money. When gas reached $3 a gallon, revenues from the gas tax leveled off because people began buying more fuel-efficient cars than they had been buying. Roads cost money, and the money has to come from somewhere. Unless your representatives in the General Assembly shift a lot of money from other state departments to NCDOT -- good luck with that -- it's a question of either (a) raising taxes, (b) imposing tolls, or (c) fighting over which roads get built and which don't. Take your pick.
This.
Except its worth mentioning (c) only costs more money and delays the fixes, resulting in more of (a) and (b).
How about 2 reversible toll lanes right up the median of 540 around North Raleigh from I-40 to Capital? Think about it, in the morning, do we really need 4 lanes heading eastbound away from RTP? Right now, we could probably get away with two! The same goes for westbound traffic in the afternoon, no additional capacity is needed there. Unfortunately (and obviously) a lane can't move itself from one side of the road to the other! The closest you can get to that is creating reversible lane(s). They did that with I-95 in northern Virginia. The lanes flow north towards DC in the morning and south coming out of DC in the afternoon. Creating toll or HOT (high occupancy toll lane - cars with 3 or more people ride free) lanes down the middle would help traffic flow and could be paid for almost entirely using the tolls. Creating some sort of way to dump the lanes directly onto roads in RTP near the 40/540 interchange (Page, Chapel Hill, Aviation) could help alleviate the problem of people getting back into the normal existing lanes near the 40/540 interchange.
Construction impacts would be minimal. Concrete barriers for 2-3 years on the left shoulder of 540 would be the only difference to normal traffic. At some interchanges to the east (I'm thinking of Creedmoor, Six Forks, Falls of the Neuse, and especially Capital), there could be bridges/ramps built so that people could get onto the westbound lanes in the morning directly without having to merge across 3 lanes of 540. These on ramps in the morning would simply become off ramps in the afternoon. Park and ride lots could built close to the ramps with direct access for buses from the lot to the ramps. That would get even more traffic off the road.
I know this sounds like a lot of money. Up in Virginia, there is a project underway to extend the lanes in the middle of 95 south for about 15 miles, which is comparable to this length of 540. The budget for this project is between 500-700 million (I couldn't find an exact number for that part...it is part of larger billion dollar plan for an additional 20 miles of existing lane improvements). However, the terrain in the middle of I-95 through there is very hilly with streams and woods (there is a very wide median on 95 in this area). The current median of 540 is a graded, uniform-width median, which would be easy to build in. From a quick look on Google Earth, I think there would only be four or five bridges that would need to be built for these lanes on 540 (i.e. where 540 is currently an overpass over another road). The project in DC also has flyover on/off ramps with park and ride lots (what I was talking about up above). Without the ramps, I estimate the project would cost about 150 million, and with the ramps/parking/etc., I estimate it would cost between 250-300 million. That may sound like a lot, but I think it is doable with tolls.
How about 2 reversible toll lanes right up the median of 540 around North Raleigh from I-40 to Capital? Think about it, in the morning, do we really need 4 lanes heading eastbound away from RTP
It sounds good to me, I wonder if this is what they are already considering?
How about instead of tolls charged per car, they charge you $.50 cents per letter for every text or email sent/received while driving?
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