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I think of programmers more like linguists, and they are rarely good at what I do, and vice versa. It's a totally different mindset. That said, even if you don't program, you're understanding of that world, if in my role, would prove useful for bridging the two worlds.
Completely agree! I'm a sysadmin type and my husband is a programmer. Sometimes I'm amazed at how little he knows of troubleshooting hardware or software problems. But I know very little of his expertise either.
Basically the answer here is... it all depends who you're interviewing with.
Wow, please do not put out horrible information like this. This kind of information is 100% false. Maybe at whatever company you work at this is true, but there are plenty of people making six figures or close to it in the Raleigh area with zero degree, in the IT field. I interview a lot of people for IT related jobs, and literally the LAST thing I look at is their degree. Last two jobs is 90% of what people who know what matters are looking at.
Hi TexRob - isn't the bias still in effect within certain sectors (like education and probably government) - sort of a 4 year degree high-pass filter.
Nobody is saying it's a waste of time. The thing is, what do you do? If you do anything with programming, even in the loose sense, then it's worthwhile. For someone like me, a systems engineer/sys admin, it is all but useless outside of maybe some scripting. IT is used so broadly, and those of us in the field know that there are dozens of fields that really have no crossover. I think of programmers more like linguists, and they are rarely good at what I do, and vice versa. It's a totally different mindset. That said, even if you don't program, you're understanding of that world, if in my role, would prove useful for bridging the two worlds.
I don't really associate a CS degree with coding. The curriculum just teaches you how computers work, from circuit theory to hardware design to processor instructions to OS implementation. When it comes to to programming, the algorithms and data structures are also taught at a low-level. It's not about mastering particular programming languages or frameworks.
I understand that people can learn a lot of practical application-level stuff without a CS degree, but if you work with computers every day, you might as well have the background knowledge. From a sysadmin perspective, that would involve a detailed knowledge of processes, threads, message passing, shared memory, pipes, sockets, etc. It's hard to learn all that stuff outside of the classroom.
I think if you get your foot in the door and are really smart and hard-working you can go far without a degree. I think the golden age of success in IT w/o a degree was probably in the 90s. I worked in web design then (still fiddle with it just a little on the side) and we had brilliant lead programmers who had dropped out of college to pursue work full time, sorta like going to the NBA. I think they were at the right place at the right time. I don't know if they would get as far today. Seemed like half the people or more that I knew in tech then did not have a computer science degree. My spouse works in IT, but has a poli sci degree.
I think having a degree shows a level of commitment toward pursuit of a goal, but if you can show that you're hard-working and know your stuff in other ways (such as equivalent experience) then that can work for a lot of employers. You would probably have more opportunities with a 4 yr degree or better because some employers really want to see that, but I think there are opportunities out there if you don't have that too.
Thank you. I've known too many people who look down on those without degrees, as if it's the last word on what someone is worth. It irritates me, but I figure if the hiring manager truly feels that a degree is a complete measure of an applicant, I wouldn't be happy working for someone that short sighted anyway.
And this is exactly the type of manager that I have. In his mind, if you don't have a masters in CS, nevermind some actual programming experience, you WILL NOT ever be eligible for consideration for a software engineering job. I was told this verbatim during one of my 1 on 1 meetings with him. Needless to say, I felt pretty crushed after the meeting and really wondering what my future looks like at this company.
Completely agree! I'm a sysadmin type and my husband is a programmer. Sometimes I'm amazed at how little he knows of troubleshooting hardware or software problems. But I know very little of his expertise either.
Basically the answer here is... it all depends who you're interviewing with.
Yep, I left a job with a prominent Raleigh company when they made the development manager the IT director. That's like making a coroner a surgeon because they are "in the same field".
Quote:
Originally Posted by ncrkd
Hi TexRob - isn't the bias still in effect within certain sectors (like education and probably government) - sort of a 4 year degree high-pass filter.
You are absolutely correct regarding education, and some government. The government thing is more idiotic systems for job criteria. It's like they have a mad lib for job requirements that they fill out. I think while a lot of those jobs still show degree requirements, it's possible to get them without. Honestly though, I'd rather kill myself than work in government IT directly. As an engineer, it's a completely stifling environment for creativity and ingenuity for the most part. Most people I interview who come from a government background is like interviewing someone from 10 years ago.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chris75
I don't really associate a CS degree with coding. The curriculum just teaches you how computers work, from circuit theory to hardware design to processor instructions to OS implementation. When it comes to to programming, the algorithms and data structures are also taught at a low-level. It's not about mastering particular programming languages or frameworks.
I understand that people can learn a lot of practical application-level stuff without a CS degree, but if you work with computers every day, you might as well have the background knowledge. From a sysadmin perspective, that would involve a detailed knowledge of processes, threads, message passing, shared memory, pipes, sockets, etc. It's hard to learn all that stuff outside of the classroom.
Maybe CS has changed over the past twenty years? Or maybe I am just wrong or there are different focuses you can take? I get that you learn some basic computer stuff, but I thought the core curriculum was code based? Has a CS degree become more like an MIS degree?
Quote:
Originally Posted by poppydog
I think if you get your foot in the door and are really smart and hard-working you can go far without a degree. I think the golden age of success in IT w/o a degree was probably in the 90s. I worked in web design then (still fiddle with it just a little on the side) and we had brilliant lead programmers who had dropped out of college to pursue work full time, sorta like going to the NBA. I think they were at the right place at the right time. I don't know if they would get as far today. Seemed like half the people or more that I knew in tech then did not have a computer science degree. My spouse works in IT, but has a poli sci degree.
I think having a degree shows a level of commitment toward pursuit of a goal, but if you can show that you're hard-working and know your stuff in other ways (such as equivalent experience) then that can work for a lot of employers. You would probably have more opportunities with a 4 yr degree or better because some employers really want to see that, but I think there are opportunities out there if you don't have that too.
I think that the part about hard working is the key. For that reason, if I see that the past two jobs the person did a ton of stuff, I never even make it to the degree. Now, for people starting out, the degree might help get your foot in the door. It's been a long time since I've been at that point, but to be honest, isn't that almost any field? There are always a plethora of entry level people, and getting your start can be tough.
Yes. I got more than that there, with just a high school diploma. It depends on your skills, experience, communication ability, interviewing capability and your work ethic. The most important thing while interviewing is to be honest.
I think if you get your foot in the door and are really smart and hard-working you can go far without a degree. I think the golden age of success in IT w/o a degree was probably in the 90s. I worked in web design then (still fiddle with it just a little on the side) and we had brilliant lead programmers who had dropped out of college to pursue work full time, sorta like going to the NBA. I think they were at the right place at the right time. I don't know if they would get as far today. Seemed like half the people or more that I knew in tech then did not have a computer science degree. My spouse works in IT, but has a poli sci degree.
I think having a degree shows a level of commitment toward pursuit of a goal, but if you can show that you're hard-working and know your stuff in other ways (such as equivalent experience) then that can work for a lot of employers. You would probably have more opportunities with a 4 yr degree or better because some employers really want to see that, but I think there are opportunities out there if you don't have that too.
And I always thought that intelligence and hard work would go far even with a basic engineering degree. At my current employer, that is not the case. The masters in CS graduates were the only ones considered for the software engineering positions, period. I asked the recruiter at the time if I could interview, and was told flat out "no". I've even showcased my programming skills in my current role to my manager and he just turns his back to me and gives the proof of concept to the dev group.
Thanks for the answers. I know an associates degree isn't as hard as a bachelor's, but I value mine. It took me almost 5 years to get my degree and certificates because I've literally worked 40+ hours the entire time while attending school part-time.
I have a good resume with a variety of different positions including management and assistant supervisor. My only issue is I don't have a lot of computer job experience. I am hoping my current job which is help desk at HP would qualify me for a salary in the mid 30k within two years hopefully. I know that I will be tier 2 within 6 months which is a good sign.
Completely agree! I'm a sysadmin type and my husband is a programmer. Sometimes I'm amazed at how little he knows of troubleshooting hardware or software problems. But I know very little of his expertise either.
Basically the answer here is... it all depends who you're interviewing with.
I was a mainframe programmer for 30 years. We never touched hardware or system software.
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