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Location: Chapel Hill, NC, formerly NoVA and Phila
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anonforcdforum
michgc,
Thanks for your response
Is there something specific about Cary schools that would cause you to feel that way? We haven't really considered living in Cary due to job being in Chapel Hill.
Also, is it correct to assume that CH public schools administer testing for 4th grade placement during the 3rd grade school year?
Our children have taken other standardized tests for 'Talented and Gifted' programs and scored in the 99th percentile, allowing them to qualify for special summer programs, etc. If they didn't qualify for LEAP, we would see how it goes before rushing to judgement about sending to private (with Durham Academy most likely being our top choice at this point).
Yes, 4th grade placement is based on testing in 3rd grade (CogAt and Iowa test of Basic Skills). But you can also do (or redo) the tests in 4th grade for the 5th grade year. You can enter LEAP in any year (it goes from 4th - 8th). Many kids wait until 6th grade to enter since that is when they'd be changing schools to middle school anyway.
CH school district is VERY strict about who gets into their special programs. They base it ONLY on test scores (no teacher input, no classwork performance, no outside achievements, etc.) which I think is extremely short-sighted, and I say that as someone who used to work professionally in educational test taking and is "pro" standardized tests. If your kid doesn't make the score they want, then they will not be in the program (LEAP or compacted classes). No fighting it.
There are loads of very smart students here, too, which works to the district's advantage on being so selective. Our former school district in Northern Virginia was much more holistic in selecting students for gifted programs based on "potential" - test scores, classroom grades, teacher input as well as student performance and motivation. They made their gifted program much broader and if kids fell back, they did, but it allowed more children who were motivated or very smart but who don't take standardized tests well to aim for more and achieve higher. Chapel Hill seems to think test scores are the only measure of performance which is an outdated thought. It's like basing college admittance on SAT score alone and not on classwork or other input.
I actually have no experience with Cary schools, but there are some schools there that are mostly an upper-middle class socioeconomic status (I'd guess under 10% FARMs), so I think even in regular, non-gifted classes your children will be surrounded by mostly motivated students. Their gifted programs are more inclusive, too. That is more similar to other suburban schools that I am used to. Our NoVA district, for example, while very diverse ethnically and racially, had a much narrower range of SES. Same with the district I went to in the Phila. suburbs. My friend who wasn't "school smart" for example, was still in classes with kids from families who wanted their kids to succeed.
Chapel Hill schools, on the other hand, as mentioned earlier, have a large proportion of kids from highly educated families and a significant proportion (about 25%) of low-income students, And if your child is in "regular" (non-compacted/gifted) classes, they may have several classmates from families who don't value education. The problems seem to start in middle school. My daughter had kids in her class who were major troublemakers - kids who stole, lied, whose parents were in jail/deal drugs, etc. More poverty = more problems. It also means that CH is trying to meet the needs of kids from a variety of backgrounds. They tend to put a lot of resources towards the LEAP kids and a lot toward their low-income students, but not as much for those who are just average or above average.
Overall, I think if you have a very smart, very motivated kid, you will be satisfied. If you have an above average but not superstar kid who would benefit from being around smart, motivated kids, it can be a letdown.
Is there something specific about Cary schools that would cause you to feel that way? We haven't really considered living in Cary due to job being in Chapel Hill.
Also, is it correct to assume that CH public schools administer testing for 4th grade placement during the 3rd grade school year?
Our children have taken other standardized tests for 'Talented and Gifted' programs and scored in the 99th percentile, allowing them to qualify for special summer programs, etc. If they didn't qualify for LEAP, we would see how it goes before rushing to judgement about sending to private (with Durham Academy most likely being our top choice at this point).
If you are working in Chapel Hill and are looking for an upscale area and want very competitive public schools...it definitely makes the most sense to focus on CHCCS zoned neighborhoods. A commute from Cary or North Raleigh to Chapel Hill wouldn't make much sense. The Eastwood Lake area would probably suit you better than Meadowmont other than the fact that it is further from 40.
The Oaks seems like the stand-out answer for where to buy a house and settle. Close to 40; very high-end neighborhood, and as long as you are on the Orange County side; top public schools.
If you are looking for a town that is exclusively upper-class....that isn't Chapel Hill...or any town in the Triangle really. Chapel Hill is a relatively wealthy and educated town but it is also fairly economically diverse. It's not like towns in the suburbs of New York, DC, or San Francisco that are made almost exclusively of 6-figure income families and million-dollar homes. There are neighborhoods in Chapel Hill where that is the case like The Oaks, Gimghoul, or Eastwood Lake...but it isn't the whole town.
Yes, 4th grade placement is based on testing in 3rd grade (CogAt and Iowa test of Basic Skills). But you can also do (or redo) the tests in 4th grade for the 5th grade year. You can enter LEAP in any year (it goes from 4th - 8th). Many kids wait until 6th grade to enter since that is when they'd be changing schools to middle school anyway.
CH school district is VERY strict about who gets into their special programs. They base it ONLY on test scores (no teacher input, no classwork performance, no outside achievements, etc.) which I think is extremely short-sighted, and I say that as someone who used to work professionally in educational test taking and is "pro" standardized tests. If your kid doesn't make the score they want, then they will not be in the program (LEAP or compacted classes). No fighting it.
There are loads of very smart students here, too, which works to the district's advantage on being so selective. Our former school district in Northern Virginia was much more holistic in selecting students for gifted programs based on "potential" - test scores, classroom grades, teacher input as well as student performance and motivation. They made their gifted program much broader and if kids fell back, they did, but it allowed more children who were motivated or very smart but who don't take standardized tests well to aim for more and achieve higher. Chapel Hill seems to think test scores are the only measure of performance which is an outdated thought. It's like basing college admittance on SAT score alone and not on classwork or other input.
I actually have no experience with Cary schools, but there are some schools there that are mostly an upper-middle class socioeconomic status (I'd guess under 10% FARMs), so I think even in regular, non-gifted classes your children will be surrounded by mostly motivated students. Their gifted programs are more inclusive, too. That is more similar to other suburban schools that I am used to. Our NoVA district, for example, while very diverse ethnically and racially, had a much narrower range of SES. Same with the district I went to in the Phila. suburbs. My friend who wasn't "school smart" for example, was still in classes with kids from families who wanted their kids to succeed.
Chapel Hill schools, on the other hand, as mentioned earlier, have a large proportion of kids from highly educated families and a significant proportion (about 25%) of low-income students, And if your child is in "regular" (non-compacted/gifted) classes, they may have several classmates from families who don't value education. The problems seem to start in middle school. My daughter had kids in her class who were major troublemakers - kids who stole, lied, whose parents were in jail/deal drugs, etc. More poverty = more problems. It also means that CH is trying to meet the needs of kids from a variety of backgrounds. They tend to put a lot of resources towards the LEAP kids and a lot toward their low-income students, but not as much for those who are just average or above average.
Overall, I think if you have a very smart, very motivated kid, you will be satisfied. If you have an above average but not superstar kid who would benefit from being around smart, motivated kids, it can be a letdown.
Where are you moving here from?
This is a very good assessment, michgc.
And, I think that the OP would do better in or near CH due to the location of the job, however, I think that if the OP wants a more homogeneous population with more kids operating and roughly the same level, the WCPSS schools in parts of Cary are more apt to offer this and it's why, I think, this was recommended to the OP.
I do think, just based on what we are reading here, DA might be really great for the OP's kids.
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Without being too flippant (because education can be a very sensitive topic), the 'barbell' effect, in which a tiny percentage of most talented, as well as a small minority of disadvantaged, receive the most resources in the public school system, is consistent with what we expected, so we are willing to stick with the CH public schools until it becomes evident that they are not in the best interest for our kids.
Given the job is in CH and our preference for maximum convenience, The Oaks seems to make sense given its central location, and we've heard CHCC is a very nice, family-oriented club that covers the bases for many of the activities we would be interested in.
I would prefer not to share more information (where we are coming from, what we do, kids ages, etc) since I am sure doing so would make it easy to identify us. We will be looking to rent initially and, while we will target the schools that the areas we will eventually be interested in settling down in (Ephesus and Rashkis, Grey Culbreth), we don't feel we need to rent in the exact locations we hope to eventually buy.
I hope to also learn more about some of the nicer areas mentioned north of 40. One concern is the slightly longer distances to work, everyday needs and amenities/activities, although it could be slightly closer if our children were to attend Durham Academy. Someone also mentioned that the traffic headed west on 40 can bottleneck, and the exit for those neighborhoods is not as convenient as those for The Oaks and Meadowmont.
You can just tell us the region you're moving from —if you're coming from the Northeast or California or the UK or somewhere. You don't have to get too personal. There are people moving here all the time. I mean if you say, "I'm going to be working as the new head basketball coach" or something then we'd know, but if you just say, the job is in Chapel Hill, like you did, and we're moving from the northeast or the DC area or something like that then folks who have experience with those areas can compare them, like michgc did for northern VA schools, and you won't be identifiable. We get lots of transplants from all over.
I know michgc has not been satisfied with her experience in CHCCS middle schools, but other folks I know have been very happy. After elementary school we opted to put our kids in a charter (oldest has anxiety and needed a smaller setting) so I don't have personal experience with middle school or high school. In elementary school it was all fine. As I recall they did allow other testing beside standardized for the pull out gifted programs there including a portfolio of work and private testing. We weren't trying to get into LEAP, though. The barbell analogy is not really great here. There is a large gifted segment (they estimate something like 35% of students qualify). I think the average kids sometimes feel a little left out.
As far as the Country Club I think Chapel Hill Country Club has a strong following. If you will be associated with the University at all you can also join the FARM. The Chapel Hill Tennis Club is also popular. Many of the neighborhoods have pools you can join and there's a great swim team league.
And, I think that the OP would do better in or near CH due to the location of the job, however, I think that if the OP wants a more homogeneous population with more kids operating and roughly the same level, the WCPSS schools in parts of Cary are more apt to offer this and it's why, I think, this was recommended to the OP.
I do think, just based on what we are reading here, DA might be really great for the OP's kids.
Having grown up in Western Wake and attended all grades K-12 in the public schools there, and currently living in Chapel Hill and working closely with the schools here.....I don't think that is actually a great assessment.
The demographic and socio-economic makeup of schools in Chapel Hill and the "hot" Cary Schools (Green Hope and Panther Creek) are nearly identical. Wake busses for economic diversity and Chapel Hill has it in a more compact setting. You have AIG in elementary and middle schools.... AP, and honors courses in high schools abundance and that is where the high-achievers (which tend to be higher-income) filter into. I went to Apex High (considered a well-off and high-performing high school a slight tier below Green Hope at the time) and was in majority honors and AP classes. The interactions with students not on that track (there were three tracks; 4 year bachelor's degree track, 2 year/vocational track, and entering the workforce after HS graduation track) were pretty much limited to PE class and a few electives.
All of the CH Schools and the West Cary schools have a majority of students from high-income, education-emphasizing households (60% range) ; with probably equal parts of F&R lower-achieving students and "mid-range" students (20% each give or take)
“Our high-end students who are coming in are scoring off the charts,” said Jeff Nash, executive director of community relations for the Chapel Hill-Carrboro City Schools.
The school system is near the flagship campus of the University of North Carolina, and 30 percent of students in the schools qualify for free and reduced-price lunch, below the national average.
The wealthier students tend to come from families where, “let’s face it, both the parents are Ph.D.s, and that kid, no matter what happens in the school, is pressured from kindergarten to succeed,” Mr. Nash said. “So even though our minority students are outscoring minority students in other districts near us, there is still a bigger gap here because of that.”
Having grown up in Western Wake and attended all grades K-12 in the public schools there, and currently living in Chapel Hill and working closely with the schools here.....I don't think that is actually a great assessment.
The demographic and socio-economic makeup of schools in Chapel Hill and the "hot" Cary Schools (Green Hope and Panther Creek) are nearly identical. Wake busses for economic diversity and Chapel Hill has it in a more compact setting. You have AIG in elementary and middle schools.... AP, and honors courses in high schools abundance and that is where the high-achievers (which tend to be higher-income) filter into. I went to Apex High (considered a well-off and high-performing high school a slight tier below Green Hope at the time) and was in majority honors and AP classes. The interactions with students not on that track (there were three tracks; 4 year bachelor's degree track, 2 year/vocational track, and entering the workforce after HS graduation track) were pretty much limited to PE class and a few electives.
All of the CH Schools and the West Cary schools have a majority of students from high-income, education-emphasizing households (60% range) ; with probably equal parts of F&R lower-achieving students and "mid-range" students (20% each give or take)
Nick, michgc is correct it that the FRD populations are lower in West Cary schools than they are in CHCC schools.
This is not true throughout all of Wake County, though.
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Without being too flippant (because education can be a very sensitive topic), the 'barbell' effect, in which a tiny percentage of most talented, as well as a small minority of disadvantaged, receive the most resources in the public school system, is consistent with what we expected, so we are willing to stick with the CH public schools until it becomes evident that they are not in the best interest for our kids.
Given the job is in CH and our preference for maximum convenience, The Oaks seems to make sense given its central location, and we've heard CHCC is a very nice, family-oriented club that covers the bases for many of the activities we would be interested in.
I would prefer not to share more information (where we are coming from, what we do, kids ages, etc) since I am sure doing so would make it easy to identify us. We will be looking to rent initially and, while we will target the schools that the areas we will eventually be interested in settling down in (Ephesus and Rashkis, Grey Culbreth), we don't feel we need to rent in the exact locations we hope to eventually buy.
I hope to also learn more about some of the nicer areas mentioned north of 40. One concern is the slightly longer distances to work, everyday needs and amenities/activities, although it could be slightly closer if our children were to attend Durham Academy. Someone also mentioned that the traffic headed west on 40 can bottleneck, and the exit for those neighborhoods is not as convenient as those for The Oaks and Meadowmont.
Don't worry. The people who would try to hunt you down could find you just from the few posts you made and the ones who don't care (the vast majority) wouldn't bother.
I agree with poppydog in that letting people know roughly what you're used to where you're coming from would be helpful. We really do have dozens of people here at CD alone asking about relocation to this area all the time and if you told us you were from Idaho, nobody here would be likely to say "ah ha!" I thought I knew you, anonforcdforum! You lived next door to us last year.
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