Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > North Carolina > Raleigh, Durham, Chapel Hill, Cary
 [Register]
Raleigh, Durham, Chapel Hill, Cary The Triangle Area
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 01-18-2017, 03:00 PM
 
31,680 posts, read 40,976,802 times
Reputation: 14424

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by michgc View Post
Yes, and NC Report Cards gives all of this information - scores are broken down by race, FARMS, ELL, etc. It's a wealth of information for North Carolina schools if people will take the time to look through it. I'm sure that states do not play games with students' race/ethnicity. It's either on their record as filled out by their parents or completed by the student on the test (not sure how it's specifically done), but there is absolutely no way a state/school/teacher could make a judegement on that.
Kids leave it blank on the test. Do counselor go fill it in? Not if you have tamper proof testing.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 01-18-2017, 03:03 PM
 
Location: Chapel Hill, NC, formerly NoVA and Phila
9,767 posts, read 15,739,138 times
Reputation: 10865
Everyone is ragging on Greatschools, but they are far from the only site out there that ranks schools, reports test scores, etc. There is schooldigger, USNewandWorldReport, Newsweek, NCReportCards, niche, etc. Yes, the Internet has made it A LOT easier than ever to find this kind of information, but there's no going back with that now. If people want the information, they will find it - with greatschools or not.

Last edited by michgc; 01-18-2017 at 03:21 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-18-2017, 03:20 PM
 
Location: Chapel Hill, NC, formerly NoVA and Phila
9,767 posts, read 15,739,138 times
Reputation: 10865
Quote:
Originally Posted by TuborgP View Post
Kids leave it blank on the test. Do counselor go fill it in? Not if you have tamper proof testing.
That would be absolutely improper. I used to work in standardized testing. And it was completely against the rules of test administration that an adult would fill in that information (person would be reprimanded/fired). What is reported by the student is what is used. This was for a national test, not for NC state tests, but I'm sure they would have a very similar standard - it would be either from student records or self-filled. Guessing at someone's ethnicity is highly inaccurate, which is why it isn't done.

But let's play devil's advocate and say someone, against the rules, did fill in a student's ethnicity. It would have to be at the school well before the tests are scored, which while possibly being inaccurate; they would not be systematically placing children in good test score/bad test score categories. The probability that the state is taking all of these tests they receive from the schools and filling in blank demographics willy-nilly is very low. The idea that the state would take all low-scoring tests and fill in blank demographics with "orange" students and take all high-scoring tests and fill in those blank demographics with "purple" students is highly unlikely.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-18-2017, 03:23 PM
 
Location: Hillsbro'
44 posts, read 43,346 times
Reputation: 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by michgc View Post
Everyone is ragging on Greatschools, but they are far from the only site out there that ranks schools, reports test scores, etc.
People rag on GS because it is the site that (for whatever reason) regularly gets cited as the reason for moving to a particular area. Nobody seems to put faith in the others, thus nobody needs to point out that all of their ratings are completely meaningless. What's really interesting is all the truly weird crimes around here seem to happen among students of these "great schools". Machete beheading attempts, drug deals gone bad resulting in murder, etc. The "average" schools seem to have a much lower track record of spectacular crime.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-18-2017, 04:12 PM
 
332 posts, read 397,341 times
Reputation: 264
I wonder if I will get a better deal on a house now? :-)
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-18-2017, 04:21 PM
 
31,680 posts, read 40,976,802 times
Reputation: 14424
Quote:
Originally Posted by michgc View Post
That would be absolutely improper. I used to work in standardized testing. And it was completely against the rules of test administration that an adult would fill in that information (person would be reprimanded/fired). What is reported by the student is what is used. This was for a national test, not for NC state tests, but I'm sure they would have a very similar standard - it would be either from student records or self-filled. Guessing at someone's ethnicity is highly inaccurate, which is why it isn't done.

But let's play devil's advocate and say someone, against the rules, did fill in a student's ethnicity. It would have to be at the school well before the tests are scored, which while possibly being inaccurate; they would not be systematically placing children in good test score/bad test score categories. The probability that the state is taking all of these tests they receive from the schools and filling in blank demographics willy-nilly is very low. The idea that the state would take all low-scoring tests and fill in blank demographics with "orange" students and take all high-scoring tests and fill in those blank demographics with "purple" students is highly unlikely.
Hmmmmm. Hmmmmmm. What if they refused to identify the methodology they used. Remember they have disagregated federal reporting responsibilities.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-18-2017, 05:00 PM
 
31,680 posts, read 40,976,802 times
Reputation: 14424
Quote:
Originally Posted by michgc View Post
That would be absolutely improper. I used to work in standardized testing. And it was completely against the rules of test administration that an adult would fill in that information (person would be reprimanded/fired). What is reported by the student is what is used. This was for a national test, not for NC state tests, but I'm sure they would have a very similar standard - it would be either from student records or self-filled. Guessing at someone's ethnicity is highly inaccurate, which is why it isn't done.

But let's play devil's advocate and say someone, against the rules, did fill in a student's ethnicity. It would have to be at the school well before the tests are scored, which while possibly being inaccurate; they would not be systematically placing children in good test score/bad test score categories. The probability that the state is taking all of these tests they receive from the schools and filling in blank demographics willy-nilly is very low. The idea that the state would take all low-scoring tests and fill in blank demographics with "orange" students and take all high-scoring tests and fill in those blank demographics with "purple" students is highly unlikely.
Ok so you worked in standardized testing so you know the available reporting ethnicities and what a student can choose between. For those who don't:

Frequently Asked Questions
Quote:
Is there a federal requirement on how we should collect data on race and ethnicity?
Two distinct questions with two distinct responses must be used to collect data about student and staff member race and ethnicity.
The first part should consist of a question about ethnicity:
Hispanic or Latino
Not Hispanic or Latino
The second part asks to select one or more races from the following categories:
American Indian or Alaska Native
Asian
Black or African American
Native Hawaiian or Other Pacific Islander
White
Answers to both questions are mandatory.
So if a student especially high school refuses to be pigeon holed as biracial kids have a knack of doing these days leave it blank then what? If they completed it and identify two or three ethnic groups which they are now allowed to do (they weren't always) how are their scores distributed. Are they counted multiple times depending on the groups checked? Does that result in more students being counted as tested than actual tests administered?

Back in the day it was a real problem for testing as:

Quote:
DATA COLLECTION
How were race and ethnicity data collected before the introduction of the new standards?
Up through 2008-09 school year, the department (and state) collected data using one element and five (and six) Racial/Ethnic Categories:
Really laughing out loud over the next part:
Quote:
Can we put space on our form for parents/guardians to indicate "Declined to answer" under the Race question or can we put "You may leave this question blank if you answered Yes to the Hispanic question" in our instructions for the race question?
No, you may not put a "Declined to answer" field on your form for the respondent or parent/guardians to use. No, your instructions may not tell the respondent or parent/guardians that they may leave the answer blank if they answered yes to the Hispanic question.
Quote:
What do we do when respondents refuse to identify their race or ethnicity?
The strong preference is for the respondent to self-identify. Schools and districts should do everything possible to encourage respondents to identify themselves according to the new format, and to follow up with those who are reluctant to respond for themselves. For reporting respondent level information to NCWISE or LEA or school personnel systems, there will not be a category for "Decline to State" or "Unknown". When reporting to these systems, if either race and/or ethnicity information is missing from a record, federal guidelines state that a third-party is to identify non-respondents by observation. Observers must select one ethnicity code and one or more race codes
.

The above mess applies to enrollment and or testing. However a specific testing guideline from DOE:

https://www2.ed.gov/policy/rschstat/...questions.html

Quote:
4. What are the aggregate reporting requirements for elementary and secondary education institutions and agencies?
For Federal reporting requirements aggregate data about all elementary and secondary students will be reported to the Department using one of the seven aggregate reporting categories discussed in the guidance. These reporting categories are --
Hispanic/Latino of any race,
For individuals who are Non-Hispanic/Latino
American Indian or Alaska Native
Asian
Black or African American
Native Hawaiian or Other Pacific Islander
White
Two or more races
In some instances, it may be necessary for the Department to request additional information about the race and ethnicity of individuals in elementary and secondary schools (such as the individual responses as discussed under question 2 above) in order to resolve specific issues, e.g., those presented in a discrimination complaint or compliance review.
For elementary and secondary students, if an individual (or the parent on behalf of the individual) does not complete the two-part question, then the educational institution should take steps to collect and document information that enables the school to include the individual in one of the seven Federal reporting categories. The Department's existing policy of using observer identification in these cases remains unchanged from previous guidance provided by the Department.
So if one of us obnoxious interracial couples has a bright refusing to be pigeon hold child equally obnoxious on this subject and refuses to answer (they do) or answers multiple or say is a smart A and checks off four or five. What happens to their test scores? Not a problem on the PSAT/SAT folks love to be Black or Hispanic on that one. No big rush to be Asian.

Regulation and compliance has become a nightmare in many aspects of American life.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-18-2017, 07:05 PM
 
Location: Chapel Hill, NC, formerly NoVA and Phila
9,767 posts, read 15,739,138 times
Reputation: 10865
Quote:
Originally Posted by TuborgP View Post


So if a student especially high school refuses to be pigeon holed as biracial kids have a knack of doing these days leave it blank then what? If they completed it and identify two or three ethnic groups which they are now allowed to do (they weren't always) how are their scores distributed. Are they counted multiple times depending on the groups checked? Does that result in more students being counted as tested than actual tests administered?
In the NCReport Cards, if someone reports themselves as two more races, let's say black and white, their scores are not included in the white students' scores nor in the black students' scores. They are included in the "two or more races" score. Yes, these scores become meaningless with respect to race as more and more people identify as two or more races. But many would say that is a good thing. What they report for SAT/ACT with regards to getting into college is a whole other discussion, probably better suited to the education board.

For purposes of this discussion, the OP asked about scores dropping and you suggested that even looking at scores isn't very useful without seeing a breakdown by poverty level and other factors. I agreed and said that you can see the breakdown by various factors on the NC Report Cards site. Yes, there may be the Rachel Dolezals out there who are circling in "black" when they are in fact "white" but unless there is evidence that people are misidentifying themselves on a widespread basis, the results by racial breakdowns are probably pretty accurate. And as most people already know, socioeconomic status is a better predictor of test scores than other factors. And since that particular data comes from whether the student is part of the Free and Reduced Lunch program, we can be pretty certain that the breakdown by economically disadvantaged or not is very accurate.

And yes, digging deeper to find that information would be useful when comparing schools. If OP (or others) are not economically disadvantaged, then comparing the scores of non econonomically disadvantaged students at ABC School to non economically disadvantaged students at DEF School would make sense rather than comparing all students at one school to another, since one may have a higher economically disadvantaged students rate.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-18-2017, 09:04 PM
 
Location: Raleigh NC
25,119 posts, read 16,146,620 times
Reputation: 14408
Quote:
Originally Posted by TuborgP View Post
Do that and the high income folks either move or send their kids to private schools and become active to lower taxes. Johnston County has this issue with SMITHFIELD area schools
you think that higher income folks would move from where they are satisfied, or send their kids to $10K+ private school,en masse, if the expectation came to become "spend 5 hours a week in the school and/or donate $2,000 per student to retain the high achievement"?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-19-2017, 08:25 AM
 
Location: My House
34,937 posts, read 36,163,891 times
Reputation: 26547
Quote:
Originally Posted by BoBromhal View Post
speaking of helpful posts..... calling someone the devil because you disagree with their politics.

to try and stay somewhat on topic ... I bet if they based funding on a school's comparison to the socio-economic average, and funded lower-income schools better, and higher-income schools worse - that the results would be positive. The higher-income schools, parents like me would "pick up the slack" and the schools would have every bit as much overall funding and maybe even higher parent participation. And lower-income schools, whether you found a way to increase parent participation, or make a real dent in student-teacher ratios, or even pay the very best teachers to go there, would do a lot better than they do now.
I disagree with her lack of experience, just for the record. I don't really care what party she belongs to.

I also think that these ratings will even out in a few months and this is worry over nothing (back on topic)
__________________
When in doubt, check it out: FAQ
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:



Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > North Carolina > Raleigh, Durham, Chapel Hill, Cary

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:41 PM.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top