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The list of examples of over-compensation could be vast, and could open up lots of tangential debates. Remember, type1 people in my example are going to see what they want to see no matter what, so they would be incapable of acknowledging they are the beneficiaries of the double standard, even when they are.
But to keep things simple and in context of existing conversation, the double standard itself (which you acknowledged exists a few posts back exists), is in itself an example of over-compensation.
I personally think it really sucks that slavery ever existed, but let's face it, every country was guilty of sins a couple of hundred years ago (and some much worse than that). Some of the treatment of Africans, by Africans, inside their own country today makes life as a slave in America a few hundred years ago look like the life of a king. Unfair treatment of human beings is not an exclusive feature of whites.
The point is that when people really want to move forward, heal and live in peace, there is a point at which the past should be put behind and you just move on, forgive and forget. Most African-Americans living in the US today are not old enough to remember a time when they were NOT over-compensated (although I do acknowledge that not all geographic areas in the US are the same in this regard). Some AA residents put this behind them long ago, developed a great attitude and work ethic, and have done great things for themselves and this country. Others choose to make a career out of claims of unfairness.
So the USA has not been guilty of bringing people to this country against their will in how long? What we see now, is people struggling to leave their country to get into ours. They are jealous of those slaves! Word has spread about the double-standard and the vast benefits of being a minority race in America, so they would like to receive the pampering that a "victim" in this country gets too. Until, that is, it looks like the pampering benefits might be downgraded slightly, and then they will change their vacation plan and opt to flee to Canada instead... in search of the premium pampering program.
Overcompensated? Do you realize that on average, a White male with a high school diploma will earn more than a Black male with a Bachelors degree during their lifetime. Also a White male with Bachelors degree will earn more than a Black male with a Masters degree. Not making excuses but that's the data. If for any reason you'd wanna be Black for a day, week, month or lifetime to receive all the benefits of this so-called Overcompensation then I'd suggest that you submit yourself to the nearest mental institution for a comprehensive examination.
As a Black man, I totally try to ignore race but there's a strong contingent of White folk who just can't avoid the subject matter at times whether at work, etc., the superiority complex is too powerful. We try to put it behind us, they won't let us.
In my experiences there's one group that has been extraordinarily overcompensated, the MEDIOCRE White male. Yes, no matter how mediocre in any endeavor he has an endless "connection" and "network" of opportunities that affords an unbelievable success story, amazing indeed....look no further than the TIC in DC, prime example. Nobody or no group does more with less than Black people, period.
The argument about discrimination and race can and is very different from location to location. We might want to remember that this is Wake County which has a number of well educated, economically advantage minorities. The school system has a number of leaders/administrators both at the school level and and central office. When dealing with schools especially in places like Wake it is difficult to make generalizations and apply them equally.
Yes, as I was typing my prior comments I thought about the marked differences in racial equity that were noticeable between somewhere like the DC area and a backwater Mississippi town, even in the 70's or 80's. But, realistically none of the victims of backwater racism were slaves to their environment, they all had the option to move to a more progressive area, and many did.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TuborgP
Discussions and issues about historical race relations, treatment, power, control etc go out the window when:
The lower middle class or free lunch single White mother is sitting in the office of the African American Principal who is about to determine if her child is going to be suspended and for how long. That is her real power relationship and she isn't the one with it.
That can be a critical factor is situations like this. The race and gender of the school system administrator and their perceived relationship with folks different from them. In most cases it is that positive relationship that keeps it minimal and forgotten in a couple of days unless the press and outside groups with agendas get involved. That is one of the problems with parental notification of these things it is at times advertising to make it something bigger.
Yes, the free lunch single white mother up against the AA principal, or the Caucasian meth addict whose fate is decided by an AA judge, or the white criminal who gets shot by an AA policeman because he failed to comply with directions and gave reason to believe he was armed when he wasn't. Many examples of whites subject to the authority of blacks out there.
These examples illustrate what I mean, the barriers to equality in terms of education, power, and barriers to success in general dissipated long ago. But, if society over-compensates and does not acknowledge that, it only gives the pendulum momentum to swing back and forth harder in each direction, and that's not good, we need a calmer societal pendulum that doesn't swing to extremes.
A white mother could experience an AA teacher or principal who simply has an intrinsic racial bias that they may or may not be aware of, just as the situation could be reversed and a black mother could experience same treatment from a white. But that's human nature, unfortunately, and a side effect of living in a very diverse country. If America was founded with a population consisting of 50% blacks and 50% whites, there would still be people that don't like each other because they are not the same as themselves. Even if we were all the same color, people would find something like religion to disagree on and fight over, and if we somehow combined all religions into one, people would wage civil wars over the outcome of sporting events or something. Human nature.
Overcompensated? Do you realize that on average, a White male with a high school diploma will earn more than a Black male with a Bachelors degree during their lifetime. Also a White male with Bachelors degree will earn more than a Black male with a Masters degree. Not making excuses but that's the data.
Well you are talking about averages and not specific people. Do you remember what I said in my earlier post regarding the two types of people? The first type of black people bring down the average earnings numbers for the second type of black people when summarized as calculated average. When someone goes through life with a chip on their shoulder, they aren't going to be as successful and that number is reflected in lower lifetime earnings. Luckily not all blacks are that way, but the "averages" paint a distorted picture about the cause and effect. The fact that many African Americans make equal or greater than their white equivalently educated/experienced counterparts proves that how much they earn will largely depend on their individual attitudes as well as aptitudes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Aristotle
If for any reason you'd wanna be Black for a day, week, month or lifetime to receive all the benefits of this so-called Overcompensation then I'd suggest that you submit yourself to the nearest mental institution for a comprehensive examination.
There are white people that have been caught falsely identifying as black because they wanted to reap the benefits of being a minority. Some of them in high profile media cases.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Aristotle
As a Black man, I totally try to ignore race but there's a strong contingent of White folk who just can't avoid the subject matter at times whether at work, etc., the superiority complex is too powerful. We try to put it behind us, they won't let us.
Has it occurred to you that regarding them as "white folk" says everything about your perspective that one would need to know? That's what's holding you down my friend, your perception of whites, not the whites themselves.
Can you imagine if I had used the term "black folk" here in this thread? I would have been accused of being a KKK member. That's exactly the double standard I was referring to.
Yes, as I was typing my prior comments I thought about the marked differences in racial equity that were noticeable between somewhere like the DC area and a backwater Mississippi town, even in the 70's or 80's. But, realistically none of the victims of backwater racism were slaves to their environment, they all had the option to move to a more progressive area, and many did.
Yes, the free lunch single white mother up against the AA principal, or the Caucasian meth addict whose fate is decided by an AA judge, or the white criminal who gets shot by an AA policeman because he failed to comply with directions and gave reason to believe he was armed when he wasn't. Many examples of whites subject to the authority of blacks out there.
These examples illustrate what I mean, the barriers to equality in terms of education, power, and barriers to success in general dissipated long ago. But, if society over-compensates and does not acknowledge that, it only gives the pendulum momentum to swing back and forth harder in each direction, and that's not good, we need a calmer societal pendulum that doesn't swing to extremes.
A white mother could experience an AA teacher or principal who simply has an intrinsic racial bias that they may or may not be aware of, just as the situation could be reversed and a black mother could experience same treatment from a white. But that's human nature, unfortunately, and a side effect of living in a very diverse country. If America was founded with a population consisting of 50% blacks and 50% whites, there would still be people that don't like each other because they are not the same as themselves. Even if we were all the same color, people would find something like religion to disagree on and fight over, and if we somehow combined all religions into one, people would wage civil wars over the outcome of sporting events or something. Human nature.
There can be a special burden being African American and in charge of a multi-cultural environment where people look to you for leadership and direction and they don't all agree on the direction. That is evident in situations like this. White administrators have the challenge also but the expectations of them tend to be more universal.
Overcompensated? Do you realize that on average, a White male with a high school diploma will earn more than a Black male with a Bachelors degree during their lifetime. Also a White male with Bachelors degree will earn more than a Black male with a Masters degree. Not making excuses but that's the data. If for any reason you'd wanna be Black for a day, week, month or lifetime to receive all the benefits of this so-called Overcompensation then I'd suggest that you submit yourself to the nearest mental institution for a comprehensive examination.
As a Black man, I totally try to ignore race but there's a strong contingent of White folk who just can't avoid the subject matter at times whether at work, etc., the superiority complex is too powerful. We try to put it behind us, they won't let us.
In my experiences there's one group that has been extraordinarily overcompensated, the MEDIOCRE White male. Yes, no matter how mediocre in any endeavor he has an endless "connection" and "network" of opportunities that affords an unbelievable success story, amazing indeed....look no further than the TIC in DC, prime example. Nobody or no group does more with less than Black people, period.
The reality is that we as a people have progressed to a level that we are still trying to define and learn to live in. We often lose perspective of our individual lives in the context of a collective life. Whites for the most part don't have that burden. They are allowed not to give a hoot about each other. This can cause us to own issues that really aren't us as individuals. This can make folks outside of the group shake their heads.
I have known some very famous and powerful Black folk and one of the things many had in common was in the case of older folks the history of having overcome historical challenges. In the case of many younger ones especially under age 40 they can have problems accepting they were born and raised with privilege. They lived in big expensive houses, went to the best public/private schools high school and college. There parents were well educated, successful and affluent and they travelled and went on vacations and often had second homes. Many today will speak of White Privilege not acknowledging that they grew up and lived a better life than most Whites. They were for many reasons well connected and are now successful but at times struggling to own their affluent background and that is .......
I remember a focus group I was part of years ago of successful and very successful middle age African American males. All well educated and very key parts of the local integrated community and a broader community beyond that. What I noted and commented on was that as we introduced ourselves everyone of us stressed our humble and if we could low economic condition in childhood. When we were done I noted that and asked the group that if we have problems being upper middle and up class what about our kids? We were born into hard times. Our kids weren't and they had privilege that we worked hard to secure for them.
So when will our current young folks and those under thirty five be able to stand up and say I was born affluent, went to the best schools and my parents worked hard to give me the advantage that you don't have so deal with it? Many have been born in this condition and those who accept and relish it are soaring.
In my mind this is part of the reason there is resentment on the part of both races about the Obama's there children and folks like Senator Cory Booker who are bright, affluent and friends with a lot of rich folks of both races and in the case of the Obama's have their kids in the best private schools with college tuition set aside.
There can be a special burden being African American and in charge of a multi-cultural environment where people look to you for leadership and direction and they don't all agree on the direction. That is evident in situations like this. White administrators have the challenge also but the expectations of them tend to be more universal.
Absolutely. Barrack Obama was a prime example of this. One challenge an African American in a position of authority has to deal with is that some of their own race will accuse them of selling out, or not representing the black segment the way they would like it to be represented, etc. Those are the types in the second group I mentioned before, that have an elevated sense of connection to the authority figure and expect special favors because "he's their people".
And then of course you have a certain segment of white people who simply don't like the authority figure because they are black and no other reason. However, that segment of people, these days, is often overshadowed by a segment of white people who are stuck in quicksand with a racial guilt complex that they somehow got from a time machine going back to the 1800s. Their intentions may be good, but they go a little overboard in their pursuit to make things right (and that type will still be trying to make things right 200 years from now).
A good example of this is that for the first time, Ferguson MO has an African American police chief. I'm sure he's qualified for the role, but in that part of the country, would he have had the role if a particular incident had never happened? Or was it already in the stars that the next chief needed to be AA in order to appease the angry mob (of both black and white people)?
The reality is that we as a people have progressed to a level that we are still trying to define and learn to live in. We often lose perspective of our individual lives in the context of a collective life. Whites for the most part don't have that burden. They are allowed not to give a hoot about each other. This can cause us to own issues that really aren't us as individuals. This can make folks outside of the group shake their heads.
I have known some very famous and powerful Black folk and one of the things many had in common was in the case of older folks the history of having overcome historical challenges. In the case of many younger ones especially under age 40 they can have problems accepting they were born and raised with privilege. They lived in big expensive houses, went to the best public/private schools high school and college. There parents were well educated, successful and affluent and they travelled and went on vacations and often had second homes. Many today will speak of White Privilege not acknowledging that they grew up and lived a better life than most Whites. They were for many reasons well connected and are now successful but at times struggling to own their affluent background and that is .......
I remember a focus group I was part of years ago of successful and very successful middle age African American males. All well educated and very key parts of the local integrated community and a broader community beyond that. What I noted and commented on was that as we introduced ourselves everyone of us stressed our humble and if we could low economic condition in childhood. When we were done I noted that and asked the group that if we have problems being upper middle and up class what about our kids? We were born into hard times. Our kids weren't and they had privilege that we worked hard to secure for them.
So when will our current young folks and those under thirty five be able to stand up and say I was born affluent, went to the best schools and my parents worked hard to give me the advantage that you don't have so deal with it? Many have been born in this condition and those who accept and relish it are soaring.
In my mind this is part of the reason there is resentment on the part of both races about the Obama's there children and folks like Senator Cory Booker who are bright, affluent and friends with a lot of rich folks of both races and in the case of the Obama's have their kids in the best private schools with college tuition set aside.
And on top of all that, they're not particularly conservative.
Because as soon as you mention these people, someone talks about Colin Powell, Condoleeza Rice, or Clarence Thomas.
But, the Obamas are very different in that they grew up outside of impoverished neighborhoods, went to Ivy League schools, and are raising daughters who have no idea (personally, anyway) what it's like to be poor and live in a bad neighborhood.
Same goes for Cory Booker.
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Absolutely. Barrack Obama was a prime example of this. One challenge an African American in a position of authority has to deal with is that some of their own race will accuse them of selling out, or not representing the black segment the way they would like it to be represented, etc. Those are the types in the second group I mentioned before, that have an elevated sense of connection to the authority figure and expect special favors because "he's their people".
And then of course you have a certain segment of white people who simply don't like the authority figure because they are black and no other reason. However, that segment of people, these days, is often overshadowed by a segment of white people who are stuck in quicksand with a racial guilt complex that they somehow got from a time machine going back to the 1800s. Their intentions may be good, but they go a little overboard in their pursuit to make things right (and that type will still be trying to make things right 200 years from now).
A good example of this is that for the first time, Ferguson MO has an African American police chief. I'm sure he's qualified for the role, but in that part of the country, would he have had the role if a particular incident had never happened? Or was it already in the stars that the next chief needed to be AA in order to appease the angry mob (of both black and white people)?
A place that had as many issues as Ferguson probably needed an AA police chief. Especially if they'd never had one before.
Might you have found a more qualified person for that particular job who was not black? Maybe, maybe not.
But, at least in this situation, you cannot say an effort isn't being made to try to address the problems there.
In truth, many positions of authority could use a nonwhite male in them. Doesn't mean I hate white guys. I love white guys. I'm married to one.
Just means that the rest of us have have white guys in charge of us plenty long, so it's not like white guys have lacked for opportunities.
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A place that had as many issues as Ferguson probably needed an AA police chief. Especially if they'd never had one before.
Might you have found a more qualified person for that particular job who was not black? Maybe, maybe not.
But, at least in this situation, you cannot say an effort isn't being made to try to address the problems there.
In truth, many positions of authority could use a nonwhite male in them. Doesn't mean I hate white guys. I love white guys. I'm married to one.
Just means that the rest of us have have white guys in charge of us plenty long, so it's not like white guys have lacked for opportunities.
For all we know, he might have been the the most qualified candidate. But the tragedy is that we'll never know, because it was obvious that the next chief would need to be black, just like you said. So because he will never know if he got the job on his own merit, something was taken from him. The sense of pride and recognition based on real merit. And, if there was a more qualified white, asian, or latino guy in line for the job, then a real tragedy to everyone has occurred and it would be a case of the over compensation I've been talking about.
An earlier poster focused on compensation as in wages earned, but that's not really what I mean by over-compensation. I mean that any policy that allows one person to receive a position or award because of their race, while a more qualified person of a different race is passed over for the same position, then it's an injustice and a sad day for all involved.
I don't buy into "white guys have been in power long enough, we need to hand it over to blacks for a while." That is what I call second grade playground politics. It might work well for kids learning to get along with others but its not a good way to elect police chiefs, judges, senators, etc.
If that was a good idea, it would be just as easy to say "we've never had a US President with down syndrome before, thus that category of the population has been neglected. We must now put someone with down syndrome in office to even things out".
Those kids are unbearable and have terrible role models. I'm glad they were publicly shamed for this and hopefully they will learn something about decency and respect.
Secondly, this isn't a black and white thing. Those children offended a lot of people, so lay off the black/white issues and talk about how terrible their words were.
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