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I see your point miamiblue. I visit Five Points almost every weekend. No matter what time of day, there seems to be a good crowd in the shops and restaurants.
i agree with miamiblue. this area is charming and always has been. it is quiet for the most part and if you go down fairview, there is all you could want at the end. i used to walk there in my 20's and it felt so good and comforting. the homes are kept up well and the people ( at least then) were so friendly. i say leave it be, my opinion only. development can only disturb this really beautiful part of town.
I'm not trying to pick on anyone, but can someone explain why we need to "get [Five Points] moving", "give [it] a shot in the arm" and draw people to it?
Speaking as a new resident of Five Points (we relocated in April and live one block north of Five Points):
Some sort of development is sorely needed. While the Raleigh Development Company's plan may not be quite what Five Points needs, it clearly needs something. Five Points has great charm, but it also has a stagnant feel, and needs some updating. My opinion is:
1. I haven't been able to find good pictures of the proposal except for
Moderator cut: copyright issues
I agree with the poster who stated that a large commercial development (I think this is too large) will dwarf the houses just west of it on Fairview, thereby making those houses less desirable and perhaps lead to tearing down those houses in the future. However, I don't think that should be a "deal-breaker," but rather a stimulus to design something more appropriate that fits the vibe of the neighborhood. Also, if a good buffer is enforced between the development and the residential properties to the west, I don't think this will be a big effect.
Has anyone seen or been to Watts Grocery in Durham? I think something like that, or perhaps a bit larger, would be perfect. Four stories is overkill, but I think three stories would fit well. Would like to avoid a development that looks like the HighPark Village development on Whitaker Mill.
2. Five Points needs updating because it has three antique stores on that single block. Part of the benefit of living in the city should be the ability to walk to restaurants, a grocery store, and perhaps a few boutiques, such that one can conduct a fair amount of business without getting into a car. As it stands, there is no grocery store in Five Points and too many stores that serve was window dressing without offering any function "for living," e.g. Antique stores x 3. How about 1 antique store? Anything to further the urban aspect of the neighborhood without compromising its charm would be great. Like it or not, the neighborhood is increasingly being repopulated by young people with more a more urban orientation. That will continue to drive such change.
3. It's true that Lilly's is always packed but the other restaurants on Five Points don't really have outdoor dining, e.g. Nofo, Hayes Barton Cafe and Dessertery, The Point. Another offering or two would be welcome.
4. Really like the idea of a rotary/roundabout. The intersection is terrible. We should get some momentum on this idea. Would have to ensure that it doesn't encroach on the vista of the church, which is fantastic.
5. Agree too many gas stations, would be great to subtract both of them, or at least one.
6. If you can find anyone who likes the AudioBuys building, I'd be shocked.
Last edited by autumngal; 05-06-2008 at 07:09 AM..
Speaking as a new resident of Five Points (we relocated in April and live one block north of Five Points):
Some sort of development is sorely needed. While the Raleigh Development Company's plan may not be quite what Five Points needs, it clearly needs something. Five Points has great charm, but it also has a stagnant feel, and needs some updating. My opinion is:
1. <snip> I agree with the poster who stated that a large commercial development (I think this is too large) will dwarf the houses just west of it on Fairview, thereby making those houses less desirable and perhaps lead to tearing down those houses in the future. However, I don't think that should be a "deal-breaker," but rather a stimulus to design something more appropriate that fits the vibe of the neighborhood. Also, if a good buffer is enforced between the development and the residential properties to the west, I don't think this will be a big effect.
Has anyone seen or been to Watts Grocery in Durham? I think something like that, or perhaps a bit larger, would be perfect. Four stories is overkill, but I think three stories would fit well. Would like to avoid a development that looks like the HighPark Village development on Whitaker Mill.
2. Five Points needs updating because it has three antique stores on that single block. Part of the benefit of living in the city should be the ability to walk to restaurants, a grocery store, and perhaps a few boutiques, such that one can conduct a fair amount of business without getting into a car. As it stands, there is no grocery store in Five Points and too many stores that serve was window dressing without offering any function "for living," e.g. Antique stores x 3. How about 1 antique store? Anything to further the urban aspect of the neighborhood without compromising its charm would be great. Like it or not, the neighborhood is increasingly being repopulated by young people with more a more urban orientation. That will continue to drive such change.
3. It's true that Lilly's is always packed but the other restaurants on Five Points don't really have outdoor dining, e.g. Nofo, Hayes Barton Cafe and Dessertery, The Point. Another offering or two would be welcome.
4. Really like the idea of a rotary/roundabout. The intersection is terrible. We should get some momentum on this idea. Would have to ensure that it doesn't encroach on the vista of the church, which is fantastic.
5. Agree too many gas stations, would be great to subtract both of them, or at least one.
6. If you can find anyone who likes the AudioBuys building, I'd be shocked.
All of your suggestions sound really good. Do you know if any neighborhood groups have been formed to address these issues? You have some good ideas, and I'm sure other residents do as well.
I agree that the development as proposed seems a little bit off for the area. If it can be tweaked a little, I think it could work. The AudioBuys section and the Eckerd area really need some help. I wonder if the owner would be willing to sell to someone who has a good plan for it?
One question that I just thought of based on this thread, is what should Five Points be? Should it be more of a destination for people coming from outside of it as other posters seemed to allude to, or should it focus more on being a center to "conduct a fair amount of business without getting into a car" for the neighboring residents? From my point of view, I think it is already a destination, but needs to be honed more toward the residents of the area.
As for the antique stores, I remember thinking, "Gee, there sure are a lot of 'em" when I first went through Five Points.
. . . a large commercial development (I think this is too large) will dwarf the houses just west of it on Fairview, thereby making those houses less desirable and perhaps lead to tearing down those houses in the future. However, I don't think that should be a "deal-breaker," but rather a stimulus to design something more appropriate that fits the vibe of the neighborhood. Also, if a good buffer is enforced between the development and the residential properties to the west, I don't think this will be a big effect.
Five Points is such a beautiful, little charming area. I was not proposing the destruction of the historical homes that contribute to the neighborhood's ambiance, but to re-thinking and re-structuring the main little area in what already looks like a Five Points' downtown.
A number of things could go in, without destroying the overall area of Five Points, and while the developer's plans would cost four houses, three in question were not anything in particular to rave about, and in the interest of saving the whole, could be sacrificed for what the developer has in mind. I think it would look better than what is currently there, and would draw more people to the area -- perhaps a better clientel?
Do you know if any neighborhood groups have been formed to address these issues? You have some good ideas, and I'm sure other residents do as well."
There is a Five Points Citizen Advisory Council (CAC) but I don't know how much power it wields. There are 18 CACs in Raleigh based on geographical borders, and membership is voluntary. I haven't yet attended a meeting, but I have a feeling that the group and meetings are probably chaired by a long-tenured resident who is more likely to resist big change (we'll see). One thing I LOVE about Raleigh, however, is the small-town feel of its politics. Our first week in town, we had one dinner at Enoteca Vin and 30 minutes into the meal the Mayor and his wife sat down next to us. Perhaps I should give him a buzz . . . not quite on that level yet!
Quote:
Originally Posted by miamiblue
One question that I just thought of based on this thread, is what should Five Points be? Should it be more of a destination for people coming from outside of it as other posters seemed to allude to, or should it focus more on being a center to "conduct a fair amount of business without getting into a car" for the neighboring residents? From my point of view, I think it is already a destination, but needs to be honed more toward the residents of the area.
I don't really see any need for Five Points to become a focus for others. I just want it improved as a place to live. The reality is that we've already eaten at Lilly's 4-5 times in one month and we've been to the Third Place 7-8 times . . . Nofo once, The Point once, Hayes Barton Cafe and Dessertery twice, and the Post Office 3 times (notice, no antique stores). Now that our kitchen is stocked and we've crawled out from underneath boxes, we're not going out as much. I love the ability to visit all of these places but there needs to be more variety, and I'd really like the ability to get groceries without a car. It doesn't need to be, nor should it be a Kroger/Harris Teeter or similar, but something small yet comprehensive (perhaps a grocery/restaurant like Capital City Grocery downtown).
While ANY nice development will attract more outsiders, I doubt the residents are looking to attract folks from other parts of town (though may not be opposed if traffic isn't adversely affected).
Well, welcome to Raleigh, VSB. I love the general area. My husband and I are Wilmington natives, and we moved up this way with his work, almost three years ago.
How funny about the antique shops! I found Five Points because I was specifically looking for them -- there used to be four or five. One in particular I liked very much belonged to some older Raleigh natives who were an absolute hoot to drop in on, in the shop. They had truly lovely, unusual things, and were well-versed in a number of artists, and carried some prints and oils, and the like. I also found a few nice things for my home in several of the little shops.
They seem to hold their own in the little area.
If you don't care for anti-que shops, how would you feel about pro-que shops?
As an 11-year resident of 5 Points, I can understand some of your points. But the reality is there will never be a grocery in 5 Points. We actually had one for a long time, as you know.
There would still be a need for parking if you had a grocery of any size---people aren't going to walk far to cart groceries home. The grocery at Seaboard I think has had a tough time making a go of it.
Totally agree on the Audio Buys building.
The shopping center with Rite Aid and Bloomsbury Bistro isn't going anywhere.
I just want to see Lily's to continue to be viable, along with places like Jin's and the barber shop. I'd love to see some kind of diner---perhaps similar to what Hayes Barton drugstore was before Hayes Barton Diner (and I really like diner/dessertery).
One of the problems, if you added more restaurants with more seating is what to do about parking. When the 5 Points Pub was in its heydey in late 90s, Scales, Fairview and even as far as Duncan were turned into parking lots with a lot of drunks rolling around at closing time.
Five Points had a grocery store for years. The Piggly Wiggly was where NOFO is now. It is not easy for small grocery stores to make it in neighborhoods with the fairly low density of Five Points. It is mostly single-family homes on moderate to large lots. And I am not in favor of tearing down this beautiful historic area to replace it with a dense neighborhood.
The first version of Capital City Grocery failed. I hope the present incarnation succeeds, but that is not a certainty. I go there because I would rather save a car trip, even if I have to pay more and have more limited selection. But I am in the minority. Most people in Five Points will continue to make the short drive to the Fresh Market or Harris-Teeter or Kroger rather than walking to a smaller store that's a little bit closer.
Antique stores do best in clusters. People looking for an antique will make the trip to a cluster of stores but will not bother making the trip for a single store, unless it is very large. The population of Five Points is mostly affluent. Those nice antique stores reflect this affluence.
I find it laughable to call Five Points stagnant. We have called it home for 16 years and love just as it is. Look at the point that come from all over to simply hang out in our cool neighborhood. Things tend to happen very slowly in this area od Raleigh. Most people that I know love the quality and pace of life in Five Points. Walk into to Churchill's or the Saloon at midnight one Friday and stagnant will not come to mind. We have many beautiful parks within walking distance. I completly disagree with your complaints.
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