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Oh geez, why don't you throw in the Durham Bulls too.
Well how about this - Pittsburgh metro has about 3 million people. Raleigh and Durham combined has about 2 million.
You brought the sports up.
The Pirates are one of the worst attended MLB teams (only beating Tampa Bay, Miami, and Oakland). And the Penguins were a Sidney Crosby draft pick from being the Kansas City Penguins.
The Steelers (over their entire history) and Penguins (in the last decade) have been successful teams and that is what drives the attendance. Not the modest population differences.
There are certainly other data points and history which make for valid contrast and comparison. I was just saying the pro sports angle is a bad one.
Thanks! I guess we will have to come see for ourselves!
I can't picture any city not being dense and somewhat walkable (?!).
I am used to cities like Denver (which I love), New Orleans, SFO (which I also love), Boston, Baltimore, Philly, Minneapolis.
Downtown IS walkabe but not large. There are some interesting older buildings, and some good restaurants and museums downtown, but the NC Art Museum is a bit of a drive. Sprawl is relative. There are walkable inner ring neighborhoods such as Oakwood, Mordecai, Hayes Barton, and Five Points. These area don't really have their own self contained shopping districts but have a mix of older homes in varying architectural styles. these are all areas inside the 440 loop. Also note that there is a fair amount of new construction infill happening in near East and near Southeastern Raleigh but prices are high there for the size of house ($450K average for 1500 sq ft.)
There are plenty of early outer ring suburbs - circa 1980's, that have shopping conveniently located nearby, houses that vary in style, and were built in such a way that the varied terrain and mature trees were preserved. Thus, they have the feel of older and more mature neighborhoods. For the most part, these are 15 to 20 minutes form downtown or the airport by car - pretty darn convenient for many of us.
The new outer ring suburbs - just below and also beyond the outer 540 loop are often flatter, more cookie cutter style houses, and sometimes also very wide open with few if any mature trees. There are lots of exceptions to this, to be certain, but that's what we have observed.
Sprawl is everywhere, but having considered the DC metro area, Denver, and Charlotte, we feel that Raleigh is well designed for a city its size, and traffic generally flows very smoothly (excluding 440 and 540 at rush hour.) Charlotte has a LOT more sprawl and terrible traffic issues.
Of the cities mentioned, I think Raleigh has a feel closer to Denver than to any of the others.
I've heard (from people on this board) Raleigh described as a "suburban city". What does that mean?
Is the city compact, walkable? Is it vibrant (lots of people out and about)? Does it have public transit? What would you say the "personality" of the city is?
We drove through Raleigh once, but didn't see much of it or get out. I remember it had some nice green space, but some of the buildings seemed kind of old and outdated and there didn't seem to be a "core".
What city would you say is most like Raleigh - Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Colorado Springs, Tampa, Pittsburgh, Kansas City, MO, Sacramento, Minneapolis?
Quote:
Originally Posted by macalan
Yeah, I don't visit a city to go to shopping at a mall.
Is it a case that Raleigh is one of those cities that is a casualty of the shopping malls, causing all the downtown stores to close? Or were there never any stores there and it was always mainly a government hub that now has some restaurants and bars popping up?
Never been to Kansas City or Cincinnati, but it sounds like Sacramento has a lot more going on.
I was hoping Raleigh was more well-rounded with a good mix of shops and restaurants. To me anyway, that's half the fun of visiting a city. Walking around and browsing in all the unique shops. Going into a city just to go to a restaurant isn't a draw - at least for me. And I'm too old for the bar scene.
We may be getting to the essence of what people mean when they describe Raleigh as a “ suburban city”. I like visiting cities, too, but Raleigh is more geared to those who live here than visitors. It’s a place to live and work and raise a family more than a tourist destination.
The Pirates are one of the worst attended MLB teams (only beating Tampa Bay, Miami, and Oakland). And the Penguins were a Sidney Crosby draft pick from being the Kansas City Penguins.
The Steelers (over their entire history) and Penguins (in the last decade) have been successful teams and that is what drives the attendance. Not the modest population differences.
There are certainly other data points and history which make for valid contrast and comparison. I was just saying the pro sports angle is a bad one.
Well...it was a little tongue in cheek as people were coming up with all kinds of metrics, ignoring the obvious population difference in the metro areas...
Columbia, SC, macalan. Don't you live in SC? It's more similar to Columbia than any of the cities you listed. It's still a southern city. It's a state capital. It has a major university. I don't see it being much like any of the cities you listed. I'd think of Atlanta before I compared it to any of those, but it's not as big as Atlanta and doesn't have as much traffic. Some people say Austin TX and I can see some similarities there, but there's no Congress St.
I was going to say the same. For all intents and purposes, just think of it as a larger version of Columbia (minus the rivers).
Well...it was a little tongue in cheek as people were coming up with all kinds of metrics, ignoring the obvious population difference in the metro areas...
Let me briefly summarize my previous post.
The highest level population difference was 424,180 per 2017 Census estimates and that difference is currently shrinking by tens of thousands a year. In the next estimate, that difference will likely be around 382,000. By the next Census, the delta will likely be under 300,000. These aren't "all kinds of metrics". These are the actual Census Estimates, and they certainly don't fall into a category that I'd call obviously different. Pittsburgh was recently passed by Charlotte; it will be passed by the Triangle as well within the next ten years.
Most downtowns are usually CBD’s, Central Business District.
If (when?) Apple comes, it’ll be in RTP. RTP is the regions primary employer. Then you have 2 other downtowns. Plus the typical suburbs most cities have (IE midtown Raleigh and all the others).
RTP
The triangle is going to grow dense, but it’ll probably be in pockets. Downtowns Durham, Raleigh, midtown, Cary, etc all densifying, Live/work/play villages popping up. It’ll be walkable communities, but the suburban type (apartments above shops like bannana repúblic, food places, a movie theater with a town center feel). But just the multi-nodal layout of the region and where RTP is located will always, always make this “is Raleigh the walkable/as urban as” debate. It’s a model that probably the majority find desirable and that’s why people are flocking to Raleigh and not Pittsburgh. It’s just a beautiful place. It won’t be the gritty urban stuff that a minority of people on city forums prefer. And at the same time, it’s not like downtown Raleigh isn’t growing regardless if that’s your thing.
Multi-nodal is a great way of explaining Raleigh’s and the Triangle’s urban design, Charlotte485.
I was driving through the North Hills neighborhood today and thinking about this conversation. When my son was small, we called it the “Spider-Man” part of town because of the tall glass buildings that lend an “urban” feel, even though it’s not downtown. It’s a node, and well worth visiting, IMO, for anyone wanting to get a feel for Raleigh as a city. It’s far from simply a shopping mall.
I enjoy visiting busy urban areas, but I prefer living in the Raleigh area.
I live in Cary, NC, close to Raleigh, for the past 23 years & I compare Raleigh to Boise, ID (ironically both are named the City of Oaks) where the residential districts butt up to the commercial district which has many old buildings as Raleigh is an old city and both are somewhat walkable - for now. Raleigh is growing very rapidly as is the traffic & I see license plates from just about any state you can name. This high growth is causing some problems endemic with high growth cities everywhere and one big problem here is they never expected this kind of growth so there was no thought given to this i.e.-3 or 4 lane freeways (beltlines here) will off ramp onto 2 lane streets & that's a nightmare + there's no way to correct this so suburban spread is occurring. Weather is temperate, though - hardly any winter or cold weather. Cary is more for Yankees, though and the locals have named it a Containment Area for Relocated Yankees (CARY). Great town.
Let me briefly summarize my previous post.
The highest level population difference was 424,180 per 2017 Census estimates and that difference is currently shrinking by tens of thousands a year. In the next estimate, that difference will likely be around 382,000. By the next Census, the delta will likely be under 300,000. These aren't "all kinds of metrics". These are the actual Census Estimates, and they certainly don't fall into a category that I'd call obviously different. Pittsburgh was recently passed by Charlotte; it will be passed by the Triangle as well within the next ten years.
Yes, The Triangle is catching up to Pittsburgh. So you are combining Raleigh and Durham. They are two different cities. And you're throwing in Chapel Hill for good measure.
Apples to apples comparison, Raleigh vs Pittsburgh, it's not even close.
Why does this bother people? Raleigh is small, there's nothing wrong with that. That's why many of us chose to live here.
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