Is the Triangle in danger of Atlantafication? (Charlotte, Raleigh: crime rates, live in)

[wizard-xyzzy]

As a former resident of Atlanta for 14 years, I can say with certainty that if living conditions there were that bad, the metro would not have grown from less than 2 million in 1970 to 6 million today... and in the last 8 years, it's grown another 13%. People are voting with their feet, and although metro Atlanta might not be to everyone's taste, people continue to move there. Or to put it differently, the house I owned inside I-285 is now worth 5.5 times what I paid for it.

[dariusxiv]

Originally Posted by muslim12

Yes , ironically you question this after moving out to Clayton so you are a contributor to this. People move out , sprawl, mark their territory . Then they complain about others doing the same ... I’ve heard from some civil engineers that an area is sustainable and able to upkeep its infrastructure as long as density is greater than 2500. That is also the lower end .

Anyhow growth to the state of NC is slowing , however to the triangle itself it hasn’t .

Growth ain’t inevitable , the fantasies of endless growth are going to send this planet down.

I don't think I was complaining, and I'm not against growth. I was just seeing what ideas and strategies for smart, managed growth.

Obviously people need a place to live and work.

Also, I moved into a place that was built in the year 2004 and I work in town. So it wasn't a matter of mowing down trees, building another house and commuting 50 miles away.

[dariusxiv]

Originally Posted by wizard-xyzzy

As a former resident of Atlanta for 14 years, I can say with certainty that if living conditions there were that bad, the metro would not have grown from less than 2 million in 1970 to 6 million today... and in the last 8 years, it's grown another 13%. People are voting with their feet, and although metro Atlanta might not be to everyone's taste, people continue to move there. Or to put it differently, the house I owned inside I-285 is now worth 5.5 times what I paid for it.

Don't get me wrong, Atlanta is a great City. It just seems that there could have been a better job done with managing infrastructure to handle the growth.

I was just amazed by how long it would take to do routine errands even in off peak hours.

A trip to Home Depot on Saturday afternoon that should take 15 minutes took 30 or more...

[wizard-xyzzy]

There's a complex explanation as to why metro Atlanta turned out like it did, some of it racism outside the Atlanta city limits. Another part of it was that almost no one in 1970 imagined the metro would triple in size in 50 years.

To be fair, from 1970 onward, billions were spent on transportation along and inside 285... MARTA, new and widened expressways (thanks, Jimmy), and the airport (four new or rebuilt runways plus 7 terminal buildings). Downtown has been booming all along. Those who can afford to live close-in have generally less traffic to fight than those in Gwinnett, Cobb, north Fulton, etc. It's not as bad in the outermost ring (Cherokee, Forsyth, Walton, etc) if you don't have to drive elsewhere for work.

The Triangle won't necessarily go the same way. And Atlanta traffic still isn't as bad as SoCal.

[GVoR]

Originally Posted by wizard-xyzzy

There's a complex explanation as to why metro Atlanta turned out like it did, some of it racism outside the Atlanta city limits. Another part of it was that almost no one in 1970 imagined the metro would triple in size in 50 years.

To be fair, from 1970 onward, billions were spent on transportation along and inside 285... MARTA, new and widened expressways (thanks, Jimmy), and the airport (four new or rebuilt runways plus 7 terminal buildings). Downtown has been booming all along. Those who can afford to live close-in have generally less traffic to fight than those in Gwinnett, Cobb, north Fulton, etc. It's not as bad in the outermost ring (Cherokee, Forsyth, Walton, etc) if you don't have to drive elsewhere for work.

The Triangle won't necessarily go the same way. And Atlanta traffic still isn't as bad as SoCal.

Not in anyway defending SoCal traffic, its obviously bad.

But as a metropolitan area, it has ~three times the people that Atlanta's metro area does in ~half the square miles.

Although I am curious how it got that way. Atlanta is an outlier when you factor in the things that should lead to higher traffic.

It's metro population barely cracks the top ten, its the second largest metro area (by square miles) meaning it's less dense and more spread out. But it outpaces bigger places in terms of its traffic. Seems (as someone who has never been there) it has to do with interstate layout as much as anything.

[cheapdad00]

Originally Posted by dariusxiv

Is the opposition to rail transit more for cost considerations and/or cultural (people here prefer to drive to work)?

The RTP employment centers are primarily campus setups with ample onsite parking. The logistics of light rail to RTP would complicate most people's commutes compared to driving. My 20 min one way commute from west cary would be at least an hour (with drive to light rail stop, wait for light rail, take light rail, wait for shuttle from rail stop to work, perhaps walk from shuttle drop off to work building). And then I'd be stuck at work without a way to get to appointments, offsite for lunch, etc. And I'm one who is irritated because 10 yrs ago, it was 15 min one way. Now headed into downtown Raleigh for work every day is a different situation (and one I would not have to deal with ever, but I hate driving in cities).

Oh yeah, and dont raise my taxes.....

[Poggly Woggly]

Originally Posted by K4GPB

• No MARTA rail here yet, they just keep adding lanes to highways.
• RDU Airport hates mass transit, since they have expanded money-making parking decks.
• Wegmans is here!

and Sam Jones Barbecue is coming soon. Maybe I should have stayed

[don6170]

Originally Posted by MikeJaquish

If you had been here 15, 20, 25, 30, 40 years ago, you could have had the same conversations.

I moved here in '83, when Nortel/Northern Telecom was hiring anyone who slowed down long enough to talk with them. (shows my great credentials!) Even in the mid 80s, I was already saying "Traffic can't be worse than the last time I went back to Atlanta". Every time it was.

Originally Posted by dariusxiv

A trip to Home Depot on Saturday afternoon that should take 15 minutes took 30 or more...

We didn't have no stickin' Home Depots* when I moved here. It took three people to sell me a 2x4 at Lowes (One to take/print up the order, take to front check out, then drive around back for someone to go get it) I was excited when we got the Hechinger's at Crossroads. Now, HD / Lowe's are everywhere.

* I lived not far from where the first Home Depot opened in Atlanta. The first visit was impressive (sort of like going to the new Wegmans). It was interesting to read how they (HD) were short of merchandise when they first opened, so chances are all of the boxes in the overhead area were empty!

[wizard-xyzzy]

I began working in RTP in 1987, and I was astonished to see that the commute from north Raleigh was a choice of several two-lane roads. This didn't really get any better until 540 began to open in 1999. My commute was definitely worse than it had been in Atlanta, although that was partly because I drove against the traffic flow in Atlanta.

Likewise, in the mid-1980s if you lived in north Raleigh and wanted to buy auto parts, home repair items beyond what you can find at Ace, etc, you had to drive to US 1. That was a big time waster.

Cheapdad00 is correct that the intentionally low density of RTP makes it a challenge for any kind of mass transit.

GVoR might not know that Georgia DOT in the late 1950s had planned several additional freeways for Atlanta. They were eventually canceled because of neighborhood opposition.

I would say that Atlanta traffic is also not as bad as DC/NOVA.

[GVoR]

Originally Posted by wizard-xyzzy

I began working in RTP in 1987, and I was astonished to see that the commute from north Raleigh was a choice of several two-lane roads. This didn't really get any better until 540 began to open in 1999. My commute was definitely worse than it had been in Atlanta, although that was partly because I drove against the traffic flow in Atlanta.

Likewise, in the mid-1980s if you lived in north Raleigh and wanted to buy auto parts, home repair items beyond what you can find at Ace, etc, you had to drive to US 1. That was a big time waster.

Cheapdad00 is correct that the intentionally low density of RTP makes it a challenge for any kind of mass transit.

GVoR might not know that Georgia DOT in the late 1950s had planned several additional freeways for Atlanta. They were eventually canceled because of neighborhood opposition.

I would say that Atlanta traffic is also not as bad as DC/NOVA.

Thank you. I have read Kevin M. Kruse's piece (part of his broader book about White Flight in Atlanta) on traffic and segregation (and his focus on Atlanta) and how that played into the placement of highways in the 50s/60s. The excerpt of the Atlanta Bureau of Planning document from 1960 (in discussing where to put I-20) leaves their reasoning exposed for all to see.

Thanks again for all the insight you have shared.