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I don't agree that we are all likely to get it at some point. That's what we are trying to avoid. There are drugs to treat it that are weeks away from approval (Remdesivir) and EIDD-2801 is not too far behind. And there may be a vaccine by early 2021 is the latest I read. We are trying to keep everyone from getting it and trying to find medicines that can help those that do get it. It is somewhat similar to the flu in that we are trying to develop a vaccine for it and a medication for it like Tamiflu or Xofluza, but unlike the flu, they don't suspect this virus will mutate as fast as the seasonal flu, so the vaccine they come up with should be much more effective. In the meantime we need more tests so we can see who has it and who might be an asymptomatic carrier.
Clearly the initial hoarding frenzy wasn't great behavior either, but at that time you had a ton of people who suddenly found out their entire family would be home all the time for the foreseeable future, and the stores and supply chain were not prepared for that. Just as our government wasn't prepared for the sheer number of people who've suddenly found themselves forcibly unemployed and needing support so their lives don't fall apart.
In the words of Mike Pence: "Do not be afraid. Be vigilant." I will be less afraid about things slowly getting back to normal as more people show they can be vigilant and take individual responsibility in preventing spread of the virus beyond what our healthcare system can handle. And with a lot more testing.
To follow on this logic, based on this and multiple posts in this thread -- and I'm not trying to nit-pick you, I actually agree with much of what you're saying generally -- we should extend grace to everyone (many of the collective "us" included) who joined the massive crowds at Costco because they were just trying to get a handle on things as best they could and so could be/should be forgiven to an extent for lack of adherence to basic disease-prevention behaviors at a time when slowing the spread was especially critical. However, those who are watching their livelihoods/businesses/retirement/financial security/futures/personal passions that they've worked their entire lives toward dwindle and face utter, real, life-altering ruin and thus might *want* to hastily/prematurely open up the economy (without any real power to do so) should not necessarily be extended the same grace and should instead be labeled dumb, stupid, ignorant (a number of other perjorative adjectives). Again, not saying that's what your post says, but just following the logic here, and in literally every other forum or social media post that tries to discuss this topic. It often seems to descend to a level of name calling all around. Really unproductive so I'm glad none that I've seen involve actual decision makers, personally. I don't think that's what the OP's intent was in starting this thread but it's headed in that direction fast enough.
Every time I see these discussions about how dumb it is to gather in public, not wear masks, not stand 6 feet apart at all times, open any non-essential business, I always wonder how many of the people decrying all of these things right now are the ones who ran to the grocery store/warehouse club with throngs of others in the early days of the pandemic to make sure they got all stocked up on their goods. Without masks. Without staying six feet apart. Without wearing gloves etc. Thus increasing the risk of the virus spreading.
Not that I'm espousing doing that now - not at all. It just makes me curious how those who are so shocked and dismayed at others behavior now (after they're discussed as socially unacceptable amongst the cool, educated kids) were among the teeming gathering crowds early on.
Pre stay at home order, I might of just labeled anyone doing those things a bit uninformed.. .and any angst would of likely been towards state/county governments for maybe not issuing a shelter at home order, or organizations / group that continued to hold large scale events.
Post stay at home order, the knowledge is there, but now people are ignoring it... or think they are special. I try to remember on an individual bases, that person might have a very good reason for being out.
But in the end I'm just glad for everyone that is making the right choices now, even if maybe they didn't earlier on!
I also want to say someone linked a very good article here on C-D early on ( March 10th or so) that helped me clue in, so thanks for that!
To follow on this logic, based on this and multiple posts in this thread -- and I'm not trying to nit-pick you, I actually agree with much of what you're saying generally -- we should extend grace to everyone (many of the collective "us" included) who joined the massive crowds at Costco because they were just trying to get a handle on things as best they could and so could be/should be forgiven to an extent for lack of adherence to basic disease-prevention behaviors at a time when slowing the spread was especially critical. However, those who are watching their livelihoods/businesses/retirement/financial security/futures/personal passions that they've worked their entire lives toward dwindle and face utter, real, life-altering ruin and thus might *want* to hastily/prematurely open up the economy (without any real power to do so) should not necessarily be extended the same grace and should instead be labeled dumb, stupid, ignorant (a number of other perjorative adjectives). Again, not saying that's what your post says, but just following the logic here, and in literally every other forum or social media post that tries to discuss this topic. It often seems to descend to a level of name calling all around. Really unproductive so I'm glad none that I've seen involve actual decision makers, personally. I don't think that's what the OP's intent was in starting this thread but it's headed in that direction fast enough.
Thought exercise here. I will focus on the groups you highlighted; the people "who are watching their livelihoods/businesses/retirement/financial security/futures...dwindle and face utter, real, life-altering ruin". I don't know what someone's "personal passions" is or has anything to do with protesting at this time, so I'll leave whatever those are aside.
1. We've had 22M people lose their jobs in a month.
2. We've had countless others whose retirement/nestegg has been decimated, for some of them, this is the second time in roughly a decade. My FiL was laid off into retirement during the Great Recession (most companies don't hire 60 year olds for openings) and has now lost a couple of hundred grand in about 3 months time. He knows he won't live long enough to make that back.
3. For Millennials, this is the second economic "collapse" in their working lives. Their futures have been set back twice in 10 years, which no preceding generation has had to deal with. They get made fun of because they lived at home longer, and didn't buy homes or cars, yet people look beyond the circumstances of their entry into the real world and call them soft.
So between those groups, we're talking somewhere around 170M Americans (although it is obvious that many more Americans have been impacted, I can't get a number of Small Business owners, I just took three cohorts we have numbers for); 22M people laid off, 73M Boomers (the people in retirement or closer to it), 71M Millennials (the people who are fighting for their futures which have been porked for a second time in a decade).
If the protests are what you say they are, why are we not seeing annnnnnnnnnnywhere near that number of people protesting? This is life and death right? This is, as you described it, people facing "utter, real, life-altering ruin". Nothing could be more serious. And protesting is the way to impart change right? The way for grievanced citizens to legally present their issues to the government to get the government to change course right?
MI State Police estimated it was 150 people on the lawn and then a couple thousand cars blocking traffic (for the sake of discussion, lets say 4 people a car, so 8,000 people). So a generous estimate would be 8000-9000 people.
Yet here you are, basically super imposing a tiny, tiny group of people and their aims to basically be the "strawman representation" for a humongous group of people, who aren't doing anything to help that broader group. And for what, to make it sound like me calling protesting without minimally protective gear during the throes of a respiratory virus outbreak, on its own, isn't dumb? And more longer term, is probably working against the stated goal of the protest; as you called it "hastily" getting the country back open? Or that I am somehow attacking/"Name Calling" ~200M people? Pffffft.
I have nothing but empathy and sympathy for the people who have lost their jobs, or had their retirement nest eggs blasted for a second time in a decade and they may not have the time left to recoup their losses, or for people whose small business is at risk of going up in flames because they can't operate. I am angry (and sad frankly) that it even got to this point in the richest country in the history of the modern species; but that is a topic for a different thread in a different board.
If those people protesting want to get the country/state back open hastily, many good ideas have been thrown out in this very thread. Demand scalable, full population testing, Contact Tracing, Medical Therapies. Jamming together at the door of a state house, pressed up against the windows (and each other) yelling doesn't get any of those things...because they aren't asking for those things. They're carrying flags and signs that read "Don't Tread on Me" and "Come and Take it"....
They just want it open and open it up now dammit.... and if opening costs 1,2,3% of the population to be sacrificed on the alter of Capitalism....welp, that's just what it takes.
Thought exercise here. I will focus on the groups you highlighted; the people "who are watching their livelihoods/businesses/retirement/financial security/futures...dwindle and face utter, real, life-altering ruin". I don't know what someone's "personal passions" is or has anything to do with protesting at this time, so I'll leave whatever those are aside.
1. We've had 22M people lose their jobs in a month.
2. We've had countless others whose retirement/nestegg has been decimated, for some of them, this is the second time in roughly a decade. My FiL was laid off into retirement during the Great Recession (most companies don't hire 60 year olds for openings) and has now lost a couple of hundred grand in about 3 months time. He knows he won't live long enough to make that make.
3. For Millennials, this is the second economic "collapse" in their working lives. Their futures have been set back twice in 10 years, which no preceding generation has had to deal with. They get made fun of because they lived at home longer, and didn't buy homes or cars, yet people look beyond the circumstances of their entry into the real world and call them soft.
So between those groups, we're talking somewhere around 170M Americans (although it is obvious that many more Americans have been impacted, I can't get a number of Small Business owners, I just took three cohorts we have numbers for); 22M people laid off, 73M Boomers (the people in retirement or closer to it), 71M Millennials (the people who are fighting for their futures which have been porked for a second time in a decade).
If the protests are what you say they are, why are we not seeing annnnnnnnnnnywhere near that number of people protesting? This is life and death right? This is, as you described it, people facing "utter, real, life-altering ruin". Nothing could be more serious. And protesting is the way to impart change right? The way for grievanced citizens to legally present their issues to the government to get the government to change course right?
MI State Police estimated it was 150 people on the lawn and then a couple thousand cars blocking traffic (for the sake of discussion, lets say 4 people a car, so 8,000 people). So a generous estimate would be 8000-9000 people.
Yet here you are, basically super imposing a tiny, tiny group of people and their aims to basically be the "strawman representation" for a humongous group of people, who aren't doing anything to help that broader group. And for what, to make it sound like me calling protesting without minimally protective gear during the throes of a respiratory virus outbreak, on its own, isn't dumb? And more longer term, is probably working against the stated goal of the protest; as you called it "hastily" getting the country back open? Or that I am somehow attacking/"Name Calling" ~200M people? Pffffft.
I have nothing but empathy and sympathy for the people who have lost their jobs, or had their retirement nest eggs blasted for a second time in a decade and they may not have the time left to recoup their losses, or for people whose small business is at risk of going up in flames because they can't operate. I am angry (and sad frankly) that it even got to this point in the richest country in the history of the modern species; but that is a topic for a different thread in a different board.
If those people protesting want to get the country/state back open hastily, many good ideas have been thrown out in this very thread. Demand scalable, full population testing, Contact Tracing, Medical Therapies. Jamming together at the door of a state house, pressed up against the windows (and each other) yelling doesn't get any of those things...because they aren't asking for those things. They're carrying flags and signs that read "Don't Tread on Me" and "Come and Take it"....
They just want it open and open it up now dammit.... and if opening costs 1,2,3% of the population to be sacrificed on the alter of Capitalism....welp, that's just what it takes.
Did you avoid mention of Anti-Vaxxers for any specific reason?
When idiots lead the charge, idiots follow!
However, those who are watching their livelihoods/businesses/retirement/financial security/futures/personal passions that they've worked their entire lives toward dwindle and face utter, real, life-altering ruin and thus might *want* to hastily/prematurely open up the economy (without any real power to do so) should not necessarily be extended the same grace and should instead be labeled dumb, stupid, ignorant (a number of other perjorative adjectives).
The people who get the "that's dumb" comment from me are the ones who just want everything to reopen without taking precautions. They need to be willing to take previously unthinkable precautions like wearing a mask at the store even if they feel fine. They need to know this isn't a hoax, it's not overblown, and they need to take it seriously - not act like they are exceptional individuals for being so unafraid of the virus that they put everyone else at a higher risk of community spread, thus prolonging this agony. That's it.
Clearly the initial hoarding frenzy wasn't great behavior either, but at that time you had a ton of people who suddenly found out their entire family would be home all the time for the foreseeable future, and the stores and supply chain were not prepared for that. Just as our government wasn't prepared for the sheer number of people who've suddenly found themselves forcibly unemployed and needing support so their lives don't fall apart.
In the words of Mike Pence: "Do not be afraid. Be vigilant." I will be less afraid about things slowly getting back to normal as more people show they can be vigilant and take individual responsibility in preventing spread of the virus beyond what our healthcare system can handle. And with a lot more testing.
Sorry but you quoting Mike Pence made me literally laugh out loud. Thanks for my Friday laugh.
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