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I'm conflicted by all the renaming. Yes, taking the statue down from a place of honor makes sense. His role in racial violence was far greater than the average man of his day. But the only reason I knew of him and his history is because I went to school in Daniels Hall at NCSU. As an undergrad, I looked up who he was and learned about his role in the Wilmington race riots. If we go too far in erasing these "great" men from history, future generations will probably never hear of them and their misdeeds. It's something we need to keep in mind as we decide exactly how far to go with this.
People can still read about these figures in books. We no longer have to have statues or buildings in their name. I suspect that we will be reading a ton about the Trump era in history books, but no one will be rushing to erect a public statue of him.
(and yup on the North thing too. I worked in Southie in Boston before we moved down here. For as Liberal MA is viewed, even in 2020, not sure it is safe for Black Americans to be there at night).
I recently read somewhere that Boston is actually one of the most segregated places in the USA with one of highest wealth disparities between two races. I remember the number was staggering... something like blacks' median net worth being under $10, while the white households' median net worth was above $200K. I am not kidding. I'll try to find that report later.
I recently read somewhere that Boston is actually one of the most segregated places in the USA with one of highest wealth disparities between two races. I remember the number was staggering... something like blacks' median net worth being under $10, while the white households' median net worth was above $200K. I am not kidding. I'll try to find that report later.
Yup, you have the numbers correct. There is a group at the Boston Globe (The Spotlight Group?) that does a lot of research into the disparity you speak. If you compare the wealth in Beacon Hill, Wellsley, Brookline (white parts of the city) vs say Savin Hill, Mattapan, the Dot. it is staggering.
Yup, you have the numbers correct. There is a group at the Boston Globe (The Spotlight Group?) that does a lot of research into the disparity you speak. If you compare the wealth in Beacon Hill, Wellsley, Brookline (white parts of the city) vs say Savin Hill, Mattapan, the Dot. it is staggering.
The Daily Show had a piece on it recently.
That's insane! Yes, found the the report by googling the terms you mentioned. Here is the link if anyone is interested.
So that I do not steer the topic too much, I grew up in a place where things changed, statues removed, street names were replaced very quickly (Eastern Europe after the collapse of the Soviet Union). People move on. The new generations - they do not care. They'll be more surprised to know WTF they go to the school named after Stalin or Lenin. What you believe in should reflect what you do. It's not enough to agree or post your ideas on FB or City-Data, and then move on with your hobbies and your life. If you believe in anti-racism, then you have to act on it. People who profited from slavery and systemic racism (often times they were at top of that system) do not deserve statues, they do not deserve their names to be part of our public schools, public land, etc.
Generally speaking, I am absolutely against any statues. They are stupid and are there because people are vain. Based on my own experience growing up in such system, it's my belief that people who are inclined to be more authoritative (loves the strong man or admires powerful people) like all kinds of statues, parades, and other demonstrations of power.
Finally, our schools were numbered NOT named after some historic people. Kids do not give 2 $***s about their school name. I used to say for example "I go to School #17. That's it. If people where from the same city they knew exactly which school I was talking about. What matters is the quality of schools and every parent agrees on that. And, who here dares to say that SU schools were crap? I recently read somewhere that they were trying to bring Soviet style math instructions to the USA... because STEM education was indeed something different. I learned it when I took my GRE and spend less than 10 hours to prep for the math part.
Yup, that ^. And to your point, the protests are focused way beyond statues and building names. They are focused on things like Ending Qualified Immunity, Ending Civil Asset Forfeiture, Ending the War on Drugs, Ending No-Knock Warrants, Ending the Militarization of Police, Ending Mandatory Minimums. All the things that create the meat grinder we see today. Anecdotally, my sister is Conservative on every issue except two...and even she is like "ya....I can't keep my head in the sand any longer".
You'll never get rid of racism, but that isn't the point. You can however remove the systems that "impart" it.
I will say this to BullCity. Some reforms will be hard; its only natural that people who stand to "lose" from a reform will fight it. I remember some years ago, MA voters were voting on a reform that would remove Police from construction details (because who would choose to pay $80/hr for a cop to sit in his cruiser when you can pay a flag person $10/hr to do that same work) and replace them with "flag people". Staties were caught on camera showing up a construction sites with bats intimidating people with the hopes of scaring voters into voting against it.
If the youngs start voting in rates equal to the Boomers (granted a big if as seen in the current Primary), things would change in one or two cycles.
No, I agree with you that there is plenty of alignment on self-interest. But it will quickly become white-centered. Police violence is not merely a Black issue. It happens to everyone else too. While White people are able to engage the justice system from a position of strength compared to Black people, many of the same fundamentals exist. I have known my whole life the war on drugs did more harm than good, that using the police and prisons to manage mental health and addiction make no sense, and that traffic enforcement by police is just a ruse to investigate other crimes. That said, I don't have much faith in Whites who figured all that out in the last few weeks.
I do hope to see action, but it's going to have to come from Washington. That's certainly where the problem came from with the war on drugs, 1994 crime bill, distribution of military assets, etc. Maybe the non-sense on the streets will somehow prompt more well-considered action in Washington and statehouses. But I'm mostly hearing a bunch of know-nothing garbage from the protesters. Defund the police is a trap. No matter how much resources are shifted from policing to social programs, you've never defunded the police. These programs have to exist first, before you can start scaling down policing. And crime and violence is real. It isn't going to stop just because we've defunded police. There's a reason why politicians almost always "get tough on crime." Something bad's going to happen and they're going to get beat over the head with it.
People can still read about these figures in books. We no longer have to have statues or buildings in their name. I suspect that we will be reading a ton about the Trump era in history books, but no one will be rushing to erect a public statue of him.
No, I get the strawman argument that we don't need to name buildings after bad people to remember them. But the fact remains, people like Josephus Daniels would be all but lost to history if not for all the stuff named after him. I'll concede, that it is perhaps the moment we're having right now about renaming stuff that is the most valuable moment. Again, my argument isn't that must not rename stuff because we'd be erasing history. That's a strawman. But I am conflicted about it. We wouldn't be talking about Jody Daniels today but for the stuff named after him.
As a practical matter, we need to establish criteria. I don't think it makes sense to rename anything named after someone who owned slaves or was a white supremacist in a general sense. We need to consider whether that person used their stature to further those things or if they simply lacked the foresight or courage to fight them. Daniels is clearly the former.
No, I get the strawman argument that we don't need to name buildings after bad people to remember them. But the fact remains, people like Josephus Daniels would be all but lost to history if not for all the stuff named after him. I'll concede, that it is perhaps the moment we're having right now about renaming stuff that is the most valuable moment. Again, my argument isn't that must not rename stuff because we'd be erasing history. That's a strawman. But I am conflicted about it. We wouldn't be talking about Jody Daniels today but for the stuff named after him.
As a practical matter, we need to establish criteria. I don't think it makes sense to rename anything named after someone who owned slaves or was a white supremacist in a general sense. We need to consider whether that person used their stature to further those things or if they simply lacked the foresight or courage to fight them. Daniels is clearly the former.
That is not a strawman argument, it's credible.
Here's my thinking on this, the guards who manned a post in any of Hitler's concentration camps are guilty of genocide. Was it their psychopathic leanings behind the atrocities? Who cares? There's more than a nuanced difference between fighting in a war you don't support and directly engaging in genocide.
People cared a month ago, and it will resonate in important ways five years from now. The only thing that's unique in the moment is the press coverage.
I welcome being shown where this caring a month ago was. Never heard a word about it until someone started a change.org petition 7 days ago. As I've said, my kids went there (from 2014-2019), so I live nearby and given my line of work, I had clients with kids there before, and I still do. Neighbors whose kids go there that never said a word about it. And thus, I consider it curious for someone later to say "Now black kids will feel more comfortable going there" - as there's been no sign they had an issue before. I went on a field trip to DC last year, went through the African-American Museum (which is a lifee-altering vent when you ide that elevator) with a group of kids including blacks, rode a bus 7 hours each way sitting with them ... never once did I hear any of them say anything about "did you Daniels is named after a racist?"
So, from all of the years of first-hand experience and evidence that I have, nobody cared a month ago.
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I don't know much about you after all these years of crossing paths in this forum, but are you Black by any chance? Because if you're not, I'd recommend you consider tamping down on the implied anti-BLM rhetoric. The only thing worse than faux white rage in reaction to another overt act of racism is its opposite, white annoyance.
I am not black. Without going down the rabbit hole, I completely agree that "black lives matter", but that doesn't mean I'm under any obligation to support "#BlackLivesMatter". That's akin to asking someone "are you a patriot? Oh, then you must support the Patriot Party!" - which if it exists, for all I know is a white supremacist organization. Does that make sense?
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The dude was a white supremacist and segregationist, how could you even remotely imply it's okay to leave any trace of reference to him connected to a school? I'm sorry Bo, I've just about always thought you offered solid and insightful positions and opinions in the past, but this is simply tone def.
I can understand how some see opinions that differ from their own as tone deaf.
I have no idea whether he ever disowned/apologized for his own actions and feelings. I do know his family has done a lot over the decades to move far away from it. Are we to say that once a family has been identified as racist in the past, then they are forever deemed racist? Would we strike one of the greatest American hymns - Amazing Grace - from the annals of existence because the author WAS a slave trader ... even though the song speaks to his change of heart and guilt?
I will readily admit to not being as "woke" as many; that neither makes one of us better nor worse. Is the name more important than how the black students perform and progress at the school, or in the overall school system?
I happen to believe that real, not symbolic, actions will make a far greater difference. And IMO, changing the name of a school like this is symbolic. Needed police and prison reforms are much more important and require all of our energy now - not our energy after we've erased all "symbols".
Last edited by BoBromhal; 06-17-2020 at 11:53 AM..
I expect my old elementary school in east Raleigh is getting the once over too...Clarence Poe
I had to look that one up, as I did remember the Progressive Farmer connection. But I didn't know that he also developed Longview Gardens along New Bern Ave...and that yep - there's a deed restriction against "non-Caucasians". Of course, this was quite common throughout America, sadly, at the time. And thankfully, the Supreme Court struck it down decades ago.
Was he a pioneer in creating this restriction, or just did what was common and "accepted" at the time? Is he "guilty" because he married Aycock's daughter? Or did he actually espouse anti-black/racist treatment and tactics himself?
I did see that Bill Enloe had his issues, opposing desegregation at one point.
And that's why - before I even looked briefly into Poe and Enloe (and Needham Broughton) - I said we should just make it simple and adopt the current standard of only using geographic references, but apply it retroactively. It would save time and angst for everyone, rather than the BOE decide who is OK and who's not.
I welcome being shown where this caring a month ago was. Never heard a word about it until someone started a change.org petition 7 days ago. As I've said, my kids went there (from 2014-2019), so I live nearby and given my line of work, I had clients with kids there before, and I still do. Neighbors whose kids go there that never said a word about it. And thus, I consider it curious for someone later to say "Now black kids will feel more comfortable going there" - as there's been no sign they had an issue before. I went on a field trip to DC last year, went through the African-American Museum with a group of kids including blacks, rode a bus 7 hours each way sitting with them ... never once did I hear any of them say anything about "did you Daniels is named after a racist?"
So, from all of the years of first-hand experience and evidence that I have, nobody cared a month ago.
I am not black. Without going down the rabbit hole, I completely agree that "black lives matter", but that doesn't mean I'm under any obligation to support "#BlackLivesMatter". That's akin to asking someone "are you a patriot? Oh, then you must support the Patriot Party!" - which if it exists, for all I know is a white supremacist organization. Does that make sense?
I have no idea whether he ever disowned/apologized for his own actions and feelings. I do know his family has done a lot over the decades to move far away from it. Are we to say that once a family has been identified as racist in the past, then they are forever deemed racist? Would we strike one of the greatest American hymns - Amazing Grace - from the annals of existence because the author WAS a slave trader ... even though the song speaks to his change of heart and guilt?
I will readily admit to not being as "woke" as many; that neither makes one of us better nor worse. Is the name more important than how the black students perform and progress at the school, or in the overall school system?
I happen to believe that real, not symbolic, actions will make a far greater difference. And IMO, changing the name of a school like this is symbolic. Needed police and prison reforms are much more important and require all of our energy now - not our energy after we've eased all "symbols".
Your entire response only serves to underscore my earlier point, by trying to explain any reason for keeping the school name unchanged or confusing what's morally right at this point in history. You don't need to fly a BLM flag in your front yard or join a protest to support this important movement, but you're either helping it achieve its goal of ending systemic racism or you're permitting it to continue, there's no room for nuance here.
You are correct that changing the name of a school falls far short of meaningful change, but it's also an easy one and helps to continue aligning optics with intent. And making sure that we as privileged white males become part of the movement for change helps us get closer to achieving momentum, which is where the magic will happen.
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