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I'm not sure why there's such a fascination with light rail around here or in the US in general but if buses have their own dedicated/separated lanes, it can be just as effective.......up to a certain ridership of course. There's a city in South America (Bogota) that went all in on bus rapid transit instead of light rail line. It worked great until a few years ago when the capacity of the ridership exceeded what bus rapid transit could provide (the system just fell apart with overcrowded stations, packed buses etc...) and now they are working on replacing their network with higher capacity light rail and heavy rail lines.
I don't think we will have that problem in the Triangle anytime soon though.......
There is a national obsession with light rail as some sort of north star. IMO, I would rather see commuter rail on existing heavy rail lines establish nodes of denser development at new/existing stops, and leverage BRT for intracity transit.
I'm not sure why there's such a fascination with light rail around here or in the US in general but if buses have their own dedicated/separated lanes, it can be just as effective.......up to a certain ridership of course. There's a city in South America (Bogota) that went all in on bus rapid transit instead of light rail line. It worked great until a few years ago when the capacity of the ridership exceeded what bus rapid transit could provide (the system just fell apart with overcrowded stations, packed buses etc...) and now they are working on replacing their network with higher capacity light rail and heavy rail lines.
I don't think we will have that problem in the Triangle anytime soon though.......
I have no idea. I think I just moved here when the light rail got cancelled and thought that hate towards Duke was real. Light rail kinda became an "it" thing, you know what I mean? Like you have to have it to be considered an "it" place. Or, maybe it's a prestige thing. Americans do not like buses, they think it's generally for poor people, so maybe it's a weird psychological thing like "oh if there was a light rail, i'd totally ditch this car" but they won't for the bus system.
I grew up in a place where I took subway everywhere, and I can see that kind of extensive public transport only works in very dense mega cities. I do not think Triangle can justify building it right now. Maybe some day when we are pushing 5 million or something, but right now? No way. Dedicated bus lanes get so much done. We should all be supporting and pushing for that. Especially with so many buses being hybrid and hopefully soon electric -- it's all win win for people and the environment.
i think the problem with BRT is youll never make it seem beyond a poor people's mode of transportation and then its death of a thousand cuts
Yeah that's quite the conundrum. But I personally don't think light rail in Raleigh isn't worth 2x or 3x the cost of BRT to try and attract people who most likely will be driving regardless. Building a far reaching system that is actually useful to people who utilize transit is more important to me at this point.
Also it doesn't help that BRT in this country never works as intended. Eventually, all the special features that BRT relies on gets stripped away to save costs or to reduce traffic delays to vehicles on the road (which is mind blowing, the point of building the line is to get people to utilize transit but we're more worried about getting in the way of single occupancy vehicles? What's the incentive for people to use transit then?)
There is a national obsession with light rail as some sort of north star. IMO, I would rather see commuter rail on existing heavy rail lines establish nodes of denser development at new/existing stops, and leverage BRT for intracity transit.
Yeah, I agree with you. With everything it's all about context and what you can get the best bang for your buck for. The reality is that transit is not funded adequately enough in this country so you've got to be able to do more for less. That means improving rail where rail already exists, and using BRT as a cheaper build to reach destinations not served by rail. Not building a light rail line to RDU for what you could've built 4 BRT lines for just because it makes your city "cool"
Yes, buses do get a pretty bad rap in the US but there are major cities where taking the bus is a regular occurrence for people of all demographics/income levels. The real difference is frequent, rapid service. If you can provide a high quality product that comes when you need it (frequency - the hourly bus service we have around here is insufficient) and gets you to your destination quickly (dedicated lanes, signal priority to get around bottlenecks/congestion), that's really all people are looking for.
Yes, buses do get a pretty bad rap in the US but there are major cities where taking the bus is a regular occurrence for people of all demographics/income levels.
chapel hill his unique characteristics that make it an exception.
1. mostly a student population
2. It's going to one place which doesnt even really allow you to park there period
If you remove the commuting to UNC aspect of it the perception issues are still there. You think UNC coeds are taking that bus to the grocery store?
Nah, there's no perception issue with it here, at least not that I'm aware of. Taking the bus here is something even privileged kids and adults do if they're fortunate enough to live near a stop and the bus will take them where they need to go. I think you actually get bonus points for doing it or for walking or riding your bike. Unfortunately several years a ago some bus routes were cut and some service was reduced in order to streamline and reduce costs to make it free. It'd be great if it could be expanded a little again.
There is a national obsession with light rail as some sort of north star. IMO, I would rather see commuter rail on existing heavy rail lines establish nodes of denser development at new/existing stops, and leverage BRT for intracity transit.
It can start as commuter rail but it will need to transition to light rail eventually as the metro adapts to having it, and becomes increasingly dependent upon it.
I think this should be the first line. That becomes the backbone from which the rest springs off of. Eventually that becomes the 'express' line and then a second standard line on the same tracks would stop at more things along the way (PNC - which I don't think we should bother moving, Cary, Morrisville, East Durham)
More rail lines would get added, eventually. I feel like BRT may be a permanent fixture in some routes where it is physically too expensive to build rail due to the gradients and existing structures. Studies looking at why American rail projects are more expensive than European ones have noticed that the price difference skyrockets when you have to dig underground. Other lines that are fairly easy to add like Capital Boulevard would inevitably get the upgrade to rail.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hey_guy
chapel hill his unique characteristics that make it an exception.
1. mostly a student population
2. It's going to one place which doesnt even really allow you to park there period
If you remove the commuting to UNC aspect of it the perception issues are still there. You think UNC coeds are taking that bus to the grocery store?
White middle class people use the bus for everything in Chapel Hill. The only thing that keeps them from using it more is that some of the routes are terrible or and/run too infrequently, the weekend routes suck, and then GoTriangle is garbage. What kind of shady business doesn't take a card nowadays? The official transit authority for a metro of 2 million apparently. I do agree with the general thrust of your argument though. Buses have a stigma. I'm not sure BRT will overcome that.
White middle class people use the bus for everything in Chapel Hill. The only thing that keeps them from using it more is that some of the routes are terrible or and/run too infrequently, the weekend routes suck.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vatnos
Buses have a stigma. I'm not sure BRT will overcome that.
I think the reason buses work in Chapel Hill is simple. They are convenient—more convenient than cars to get to campus. So many people (professors, staff, students, citizens) use it that it doesn't have any stigma in town of being only for less well off folks. Not sure if you can make the bus more convenient than cars in other parts of the Triangle, but maybe with the dedicated fast lanes. BTW, I'm sure some students do use the bus to get groceries if they can't walk or drive. That baby Target gets a lot of grocery action downtown, too.
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