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The question is, "Why not?" Why does a country need a flag? Why not individuals? I'm for anything that doesn't promote hate. So just because one person, group, state or country doesn't have one, does not mean that other's should and cannot. It's a choice. I don't know the reasons for maintaining the confederate flag in that region (I'm apparently learning from accounts here and elsewhere), but it's their choice and the design is not really half bad.
The Navy has it's own flag doesn't it? The "Don't Tread on Me" flag w/ the snake--dates back to the Revolutionary War, I think. I know it's never been a symbol of hate and segregation but taking the analogy of Iminformed and others, should the Navy just fly the US Flag?
I am not talking about the various state flags that changed during the Civil Rights movement, but the Confederate Flag itself. Many southern states adopted the imagery of the Confederate Flag onto their State flags in protest to segregation, which they saw as the North trying to impose its will on the South in the same way it did in the Civil War. This was controversial at the time, but the controversy wasn't aimed at the Confederate Flag itself initially, only at the State flags adoption of it (and the reasons they did so). As that protest grew more organized (around the 80s), it became a fight against the display of the Confederate Flag in general, not just the State flags.
I learned some interesting things. There was a lot of thought that went into creating the Confederate Flag and one of the things the Confederacy wanted was to have it be similar to the United States flag as many states still felt some allegiance to the U.S. What I didn't know was how the current flag came to be (it's not really the original "Stars and Bars") and why it came to be. It's an interesting read and gave me a good understanding of the flag's place in our history. And the Confederacy *is* part of our country's history.
I am not talking about the various state flags that changed during the Civil Rights movement, but the Confederate Flag itself. Many southern states adopted the imagery of the Confederate Flag onto their State flags in protest to segregation, which they saw as the North trying to impose its will on the South in the same way it did in the Civil War. This was controversial at the time, but the controversy wasn't aimed at the Confederate Flag itself initially, only at the State flags adoption of it (and the reasons they did so). As that protest grew more organized (around the 80s), it became a fight against the display of the Confederate Flag in general, not just the State flags.
But you're using flawed logic here. It's not like all of a sudden there was resentment of the confederate flag out of nowhere in the 1980s. An event happened that brought the discussion out in more than it had been. That doesn't mean it wasn't seen as a racist symbol before that, a hurtful symbol before that.
The fact is that the symbol is associated with bigotry. That is the fact, regardless of what other associations to southern heritage exist. Not sure why anyone wants their heritage associated with bigotry, but whatever. The swastika analogy is completely valid for this reason. A symbol that didn't start out associated with hate and bigotry, but that association is dominant nonetheless.
I did some searching on the internet and found this site.There was a lot of thought that went into creating the Confederate Flag and one of the things the Confederacy wanted was to have it be similar to the United States flag as many states still felt some allegiance to the U.S. What I didn't know was how the current flag came to be (it's not really the original "Stars and Bars") and why it came to be. It's an interesting read and gave me a good understanding of the flag's place in our history. And the Confederacy *is* part of our country's history.
The confederacy also owned slaves and the flag is a symbol of racism throughout the african-american community (and those of us white people who see it their way).
But you're using flawed logic here. It's not like all of a sudden there was resentment of the confederate flag out of nowhere in the 1980s. An event happened that brought the discussion out in more than it had been. That doesn't mean it wasn't seen as a racist symbol before that, a hurtful symbol before that.
The fact is that the symbol is associated with bigotry. That is the fact, regardless of what other associations to southern heritage exist. Not sure why anyone wants their heritage associated with bigotry, but whatever. The swastika analogy is completely valid for this reason. A symbol that didn't start out associated with hate and bigotry, but that association is dominant nonetheless.
I'm not sure I completely agree with this Scorp. The Confederate flag is primarily associated with the Civil War, in my opinion, not bigotry per se. The war came about on many issues, not just the issue of slavery. Many southern states didn't feel their interests were represented in Congress because the rapidly industrializing north had a much greater population. And that was ironic because "taxation without representation" was a huge issue in the Revolutionary War!
In degrees, the Confederate flag is associated with slavery but only because slavery was one of the big issues of the war (or at least today's lay-person believes). That's one of the reasons I can't completely buy the swastika analogy either. Hitler's agenda was to create a pure human race by whatever means possible (the FINAL SOLUTION). There was no such single-minded agenda in the Confederacy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by scorp200
The confederacy also owned slaves and the flag is a symbol of racism throughout the african-american community (and those of us white people who see it their way).
The Confederacy didn't own slaves. Individuals owned slaves.
I am not talking about the various state flags that changed during the Civil Rights movement, but the Confederate Flag itself.
But that flag type never historically represented the Confederacy. Which begs the question of an individual or group's allegiance to that 'Confederate' flag.
It's hard to have a conversation (virtually or otherwise) when history is ignored and personal experience/opinion is favoured. No one but you, Dire Wolf, knows which flag of which you speak. Further, you've posted at least three factually false statements, which makes it hard to move forward when those statements need to be corrected.
As far as your assertion that state flags were 'changed during Civil Rights movement' again, I am confused. For example, Georgia redesigned it's state flag in 1956 to incorporate the Confederate Battle Flag. It was not until 2001 the Georgia state flag was redesigned to reduce the Confederate Battle Flag symbol, though the flat continued to show the Confederate Battle flag.
Though popular demand overwhelmed this 2001 design and in 2003, the 'Stars and Bars' (maybe this is the flag type you know?) was used to create a compromise design for the state of Georgia.
Please share what you know about changes to Confederate States' flags 'during the Civil Rights movement', as you stated.
I'm not sure I completely agree with this Scorp. The Confederate flag is primarily associated with the Civil War, in my opinion, not bigotry per se.
Perhaps for you it is primarily associated with the Civil War...but it is undeniable that it is also associated with bigotry. Undeniable to the point that I can't believe it's being debated here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NChomesomeday
The Confederacy didn't own slaves. Individuals owned slaves.
Yeah...I was talking about the individuals...thought that was obvious...
Many Southern states also have their own days for honoring the Confederate dead.
Mississippi celebrates Confederate Memorial Day on the last Monday of April, Alabama on the fourth Monday of April, and Georgia on April 26. North and South Carolina observe it on May 10, Louisiana on June 3 and Tennessee calls that date Confederate Decoration Day. Texas celebrates Confederate Heroes Day January 19 and Virginia calls the last Monday in May Confederate Memorial Day.
[quote=cupkrazy;3832606]Okay....I'm so sick of people thinking if you fly the confederate flag you are racist. This is not so. It's called heritage people.
Good for you!! I'm also a native South Carolinian.
Though I do not fly the flag I'm proud of it's heritage.
There is a redneck store down from my house and the things they have in there make me sick. During some holidays they have girls standing outside with rebel flag bathing suits on and it turns my stomach to see this flag desecrated this way.
I would rep you but I have to wait a while.
Hang in there and be proud to remember and honor your Grand father.
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Confederate Observances
