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This is exactly why the city should have found a way to invest the money spent on Fayetteville St. into some creative subsidized development for young and middle income buyers. I am not talking about give-aways but rather some sort of financial support that comes with an agreement with developers that required them to sell their products at levels more people could afford.
When you say "at levels more people could afford", if people can't afford the places being offered, then they won't sell and prices will fall. If people can afford them, then why do you need more people who can afford them? Or is this just some sort of social engineering where people that could afford the current prices wouldn't be eligible for these lower prices?
I don't want to see the city governments dictating what private owners can sell or rent their land for. Zoning restrictions that control the size of properties is one thing, ensuring that you have a mix of smaller residential with larger, more expensive. But if the area is in demand, the city shouldn't be trying to artificially control prices on those smaller places.
One problem (you never knew this could be a problem, could you?) is that Raleigh doesn't have a whole lot of high-rise buildings that are abandoned/not used except for the first floor or so. That's something that has a preponderance in downtown Houston and what they are doing is renovating those and converting them into condos/lofts. The main steel/concrete/brick essence of the building is there - just a lot of interior work done basically. They may be a little high at first, but when (if, I probably should say on many) they get done they will have to be priced competitively or they won't sell. I was thinking about how Raleigh could do something like that...then remembered that there really isn't a whole lot to work with like that. Maybe I'm wrong.
Failing that - maybe people come in droves and gentrify the hoods around Chavis Park and such?
If downtown's gonna make it, there needs to be some sort of outside-the-box solution. I don't see a whole lot of people buying $300K condos in a downtown that's strictly a work in progress at this point. Maybe down the road that dog will hunt.
But if gas gets high enough and all the driving from Cary and Clayton and Wake Forest and far North Raleigh and such - anything can happen. Wherever is close to work, can be traveled safely on foot (one thing Raleigh doesn't do all that well outside of downtown)
The mention of walking around Raleigh makes me also think of how dark the place is at night. Most of the city looks every bit as dead as it is. Go out into southeast Raleigh around 440 at night and it can feel like the middle of nowhere. And it sounds like if you're not downtown there's still nothing to eat after 10. At least there is a Denny's up on the outer north beltine. That is a step up from Johnston County - where I was actually living, though not far from the Wake line - is hopeless unless you like Waffle House (and the attendant room-temperature eggs and sanitation scores).
Even the IHOP in Garner closes at midnight. I did not know IHOPs closed at all until I got over there. I found that out soon after moving there, and you could say that it said a lot. I'm glad that I happened to notice the hours on the door going there for breakfast at a fairly "normal" time instead of driving out there and not driving out there at 3am to see the place with the lights out. I mean, I was not expecting Raleigh or anything around there to be some sort of 24-hour Manhattan kind of place, but there's gotta be at least a place or two you can go in to eat and sober up after last call. No wonder there are so many drunk drivers out there.
When you say "at levels more people could afford", if people can't afford the places being offered, then they won't sell and prices will fall. If people can afford them, then why do you need more people who can afford them? Or is this just some sort of social engineering where people that could afford the current prices wouldn't be eligible for these lower prices?
I don't want to see the city governments dictating what private owners can sell or rent their land for. Zoning restrictions that control the size of properties is one thing, ensuring that you have a mix of smaller residential with larger, more expensive. But if the area is in demand, the city shouldn't be trying to artificially control prices on those smaller places.
It's not that simple. What I was proposing is that the market expands beyond the high end market with help from the city. Prices on the expensive luxury condos are not going to fall to the level where 26 year old's in their first post college job can readily afford them. Even the very small condos are expensive. So, it's not necessarily a size issue. The amount of housing constructed downtown will just be limited to the wealthy and we will never realize the full potential of a more eco-friendly, tax friendly development model...one that won't require endless miles of new roads, endless new infrastructure and one that would provide more revenues per S.F. and per acre in the form of property taxes. In the end, we ALL subsidize that infrastructure.
You might call that social engineering but I consider that we have been under a giant corporate led social engineering experiment that is codified in zoning and development laws for the last half a century...one that REQUIRES the increasing use and accomodation of automobiles and use of massive amounts of oil. How much money have I spent in my taxes to pay for that social experiment? In the end, we ALL subsidize the infrastructure that is often used by only those who live in those specific neighborhoods. The status quo is arguably the most expensive social experiment in the history of mankind.
It's ironic to me that we spend money on roads without batting an eye but the second that we start talking about spending money on people, it suddenly becomes a social engineering experiment or some sort of "scary" socialism.
If there is demand enough for the expensive luxury condos, then that is what the developers will build. They make more profit. But if that demand can't sustain development in the area (which I think is the case and that we are starting to see a plateau) you'll start to see developers do some more modest projects. There is already a wide range from mid-to-high. If your goal is more people downtown and projects are being built and people are moving, why does it matter who those people are? It is one less house in the suburbs, one less person commuting, etc.
And we definitely "blink an eye" before spending on roads. There is tons of debate and planning. Funds are limited. If we didn't blink an eye, we'd have 540 done. We'd have I-40 at the Wade merge to I-440 widened long ago. Highway 54 wouldn't be some dinky little 2 lane road from Raleigh all the way to RTP, etc.
Last edited by Dire Wolf; 06-11-2008 at 10:44 PM..
Failing that - maybe people come in droves and gentrify the hoods around Chavis Park and such?
There has been a lot of revitalization in and near downtown in the last several years. It was not long ago at all that only a few blocks of Oakwood were cleaned up and desirable. Now nearly the entire area is and it has spread to Mordecai and farther. And there is a lot of relatively cheap land/homes inside the beltline east of downtown. We were heading to REM last night at Walnut Creek and cut over some roads like Milburnie, Poole, etc that have massive lots with modest ranch homes. If things continue like they have, this stuff will get renovated or torn down and denser development go in.
One problem (you never knew this could be a problem, could you?) is that Raleigh doesn't have a whole lot of high-rise buildings that are abandoned/not used except for the first floor or so. That's something that has a preponderance in downtown Houston and what they are doing is renovating those and converting them into condos/lofts. The main steel/concrete/brick essence of the building is there - just a lot of interior work done basically. They may be a little high at first, but when (if, I probably should say on many) they get done they will have to be priced competitively or they won't sell. I was thinking about how Raleigh could do something like that...then remembered that there really isn't a whole lot to work with like that. Maybe I'm wrong.
Failing that - maybe people come in droves and gentrify the hoods around Chavis Park and such?
If downtown's gonna make it, there needs to be some sort of outside-the-box solution. I don't see a whole lot of people buying $300K condos in a downtown that's strictly a work in progress at this point. Maybe down the road that dog will hunt.
But if gas gets high enough and all the driving from Cary and Clayton and Wake Forest and far North Raleigh and such - anything can happen. Wherever is close to work, can be traveled safely on foot (one thing Raleigh doesn't do all that well outside of downtown)
The mention of walking around Raleigh makes me also think of how dark the place is at night. Most of the city looks every bit as dead as it is. Go out into southeast Raleigh around 440 at night and it can feel like the middle of nowhere. And it sounds like if you're not downtown there's still nothing to eat after 10. At least there is a Denny's up on the outer north beltine. That is a step up from Johnston County - where I was actually living, though not far from the Wake line - is hopeless unless you like Waffle House (and the attendant room-temperature eggs and sanitation scores).
Even the IHOP in Garner closes at midnight. I did not know IHOPs closed at all until I got over there. I found that out soon after moving there, and you could say that it said a lot. I'm glad that I happened to notice the hours on the door going there for breakfast at a fairly "normal" time instead of driving out there and not driving out there at 3am to see the place with the lights out. I mean, I was not expecting Raleigh or anything around there to be some sort of 24-hour Manhattan kind of place, but there's gotta be at least a place or two you can go in to eat and sober up after last call. No wonder there are so many drunk drivers out there.
My wife and I have eaten at many different establishments after 10pm. There are literally hundreds of places to eat after 10pm. Maybe you need to look a little harder. That's actually the first time I've ever heard of anything such as you claim. Maybe you're just upset because your favorite establishments are closed at that time.
My wife and I have eaten at many different establishments after 10pm. There are literally hundreds of places to eat after 10pm. Maybe you need to look a little harder. That's actually the first time I've ever heard of anything such as you claim. Maybe you're just upset because your favorite establishments are closed at that time.
Well, I have plenty around me now but...well, speak up. I asked a question and it sounds like you have answers. What are they? Where are they? And hundreds? Really now...And just how late are they open? 10pm to me is usually what, say, 4 or 5pm is to most people.
As for my favorite establishments - some were closed, some didn't exist there at all. I'd have even killed for Whataburger or Jack In The Box. I know Whataburger will give me a burger that was cooked after I ordered it at 2am. A lot of Mickey D's are open but they have a "late night" menu that basically consists of the stuff they cooked en masse when they closed the dining room.
Saw this today in the Noise&Disturber:
newsobserver.com | Seaboard apartments planned (http://www.newsobserver.com/business/story/1105139.html - broken link)
Well, I have plenty around me now but...well, speak up. I asked a question and it sounds like you have answers. What are they? Where are they? And hundreds? Really now...And just how late are they open? 10pm to me is usually what, say, 4 or 5pm is to most people.
As for my favorite establishments - some were closed, some didn't exist there at all. I'd have even killed for Whataburger or Jack In The Box. I know Whataburger will give me a burger that was cooked after I ordered it at 2am. A lot of Mickey D's are open but they have a "late night" menu that basically consists of the stuff they cooked en masse when they closed the dining room.
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