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The grass is not neccesarily always greener elsewhere, you will find problems, and have to fight new battles. No matter where you live.
With that in mind, why are you looking to move? Perhaps you should take your own advice and stay where you are and learn to overcome your challenges there.
I again state you have no idea about the northeast, specifically LI. I owned a 1400 square foot house in a very nice area and paid over $2500. for just my mortgage, taxes over $11,000 a year. Be happy you have such a magnificent home, stay where you are-you will be happy you did. You appear to have it all!
In essence, even though Fairfax County already has one of the best public school districts in the nation, many people were trying to find the "best of the best" for their children while I just sat there in disbelief seeing that so many people would be willing to pay a premium of, in some cases, a couple hundred thousand dollars on housing prices in order to send their children to a school "pyramid" (whatever that means) with what I often suspect is an artificially inflated reputation. I'm a product of a public school district that is ranked below-average for both the state of Pennsylvania and the nation, and nevertheless I can rattle off dozens of friends of mine who, like me, are about to embark upon very professionally successful futures after being admitted into the colleges of our first choice. The difference? My parents didn't take on an extra weekend job each to help pay for a higher mortgage payment to send me to a "gold ribbon" school in the same fashion that some on the NoVA forum obsess over. My friends and I are all living proof that if your child has the drive to succeed and if you are 100% committed towards helping your child live to his or her fullest potential, then you do NOT need to cluster yourselves in horridly expensive suburban enclaves. I'm graduating with far less than $20,000 in student loan debt because I didn't feel the "need" to go to an Ivy-league school. Friends of mine paid multiple times that to finance their educations and are now earning starting salaries comparable to mine.
Every generation should exceed the standard of living experienced by their prior generation, but what many consider to be a "normal" standard of living today has been inflated higher than usual for a successive generation. People now think it is "normal" to hand their children the keys to a brand new Audi TT Roadster on their 16th birthdays. Why? People now think it is "normal" to have more bathrooms in your home than occupants. Why? People now think it is "normal" to have 1,000 square feet of personal living space per each occupant of a home. Why? I'm VERY happy in life, and our family of four lived in a 1,500 square foot ranch home with only one bathroom (in hindsight an extra half-bath would have been nice so I wouldn't have had to have done the "pee pee dance" when another relative was in there, but I digress). People now think it is "normal" to sign for a mortgage that is in some cases 4, 5, or 6 times their gross annual household income and then feeling so "entitled" that they don't feel they should be a target of home foreclosure when they can't make the payments. Why? I've just seen too many in society be "spoiled" like this, and now I'm becoming jaded at a very young age.
With that in mind, why are you looking to move? Perhaps you should take your own advice and stay where you are and learn to overcome your challenges there.
I think that comment was a little bit uncalled for. In my opinion silverbox's sentiments are more universally applicable and should NOT be meant to personally single out an area like the Triangle. I live in what many consider to be a "down-to-earth" part of Interior Pennsylvania, and yet even here I've seen enough of the "Real Housewives of Atlanta" sort of atmosphere exhibited by many selfish and "entitled" people to make my skin crawl. As I've said repeatedly the comments I'm making should by no means be taken as a "stab" against the Triangle, or even North Carolina, as MOST states battle with these same issues I'm bringing to light (perhaps save for uber-rural ones like Wyoming or Alaska or uber-urban ones like Rhode Island). I just happened to have stumbled onto this thread and wanted to add something to the conversation.
^^ What does this have to do with the OP? It would appear that you and Silvebox are now simply presuming to know the exact reasons why people move and assume that in every case it is for all the wrong (in your eyes) reasons. Such thinking is quite judgemental and narrow in perspective IMHO.
The original poster's most recent reply touched upon how society today tends to be more concerned with materialism and excess than prior generations, and since a large part of this thread involves people saying "Oh my gawd! Look! You can get a 4,500 square foot home dyown dyer for only $500,000!" without any explanation as to why said person would even need a home that large when they only have one child it IS pertinent to the discussion at-hand, as such excess IS driving the cost of housing upwards, making it difficult for natives to afford to stand their ground. Why is the American Dream now to have a McMansion several times larger than what you would typically need for the given size of a family on a large lot that offers mostly nothing but grass where trees once stood? Is it just because "it's a free country; I'll do what I want" or is it just because "it's pretty to look at?"
"A house isn't everything. Its actually better to pay for as little of it as possible. But additionally, buying as little house as you need with as low a rate as possible is ideal. Your performance in stocks will kill whatever the house will appreciate, which is a concept most people fail to recognize. JUst some friendly advice."
Some of your assumptions are simply not correct. First. you seem to be assuming that everyone moving from the Northeast is going to take all the money they make and roll it in to a big ass house in North Carolina or wherever. Not the case for me. I could and might buy a house for cash. But would still have money left over to fund retirement. And with the diffential in tax savings, potentially 10k plus per year, I will have additional discretionary income to increase my retirement savings.
Real Estate is an asset class. Stocks are an asset class. Bonds are an asset class. Over the past 10 year rolling period which of these asset classes have shown a negative total return? Stocks. Go back to the 1930's and the historical returns of these asset classes are similar. It wasn't always this way but with the tech stock bubble of 2000 and the recent stock market collapse where stocks have declined about 50% and real estate in most markets not as much, the performance of these asset classes are similar, particularly on a risk adjusted basis. You might assume that the Triangle real estate market is overpriced at current levels and the stock market is cheap at current levels and that might be the case but sell offs in residential housing are usually limited somewhat because its harder to sell your house than stocks.
Furthermore, what type of homeowners got hurt most in the recent mortgage crisis? Those that had put the least amount of money down and/or those that had the least amount of equity in their homes because in situations like that the value of the house potentially falls below the value of the loan. I understand the benefits of mortgage tax deductions, time value of money, diversifying among asset classes, etc. What I also understand is that peoples life and job situations change all the time. And if you have a house that is paid off, you have an amazing amount of financial security. Over the past 3 years people who have played the game of putting as little as possible down on their house, or tapping in to the equity of their home to invest the difference, have been hurt very badly.
A lot of what you post about, while intellectually interesting and stimulating, and maybe even theoretically or statistically accurate and posted in a very intelligent way, does not necessarily translate in to things that are actionable in the real world.
A relocation out of New York makes financial sense for me. It also might make quality of life sense for me. I am not saying New York is uninhabitable for everyone. I can't say that because I am expecting someone to pay a lot of money to buy my house. Which they will because it will make economic and quality of life sense for them.
I can be happy living anywhere. So can my kids. And its not because we will be providing them with a bigger house or more property. That might or might not be the case. But we will have more discretionary income to do with it what we choose, just because of the tax differential. And the weather will be better. And the college basketball will be better. And maybe the pace will be more relaxed than what we are used to. And for business purposes, the increasing population in the Triangle is potentially advantageous to me.
Don't for a second think a lot of us haven't evaluated this on a lot of levels and have made prudent decisions, based on a lot more than what you seem to perceive as some desire to upsize to satisfy our egos or provide my children with the best of everything or that we all have unrealistic expectations or are searching for something that doesn't exist. And I'm not going to be comparing the old Triangle to the new Triangle. I am going to be comparing the new place I live to the old place I lived. And admittedly not worrying too much about how my move impacts regional planning, demographic trends, etc. And if things work out right, I will give my children the opportunity to put themselves in a position where they will be able to make their own smart choices.
I don't mean to argue with you. I just think some of your angst is misguided. No offense meant.
No offense taken here, and I really am not trying to be offensive at all to anyone either. While I can't speak on behalf of the OP, my particular comments are universal ones aimed at society and not meant to target the Triangle in general. I worry because at age 22 I notice most Baby Boomers don't care much about sprawl, running out of potable water, exhausting our supply of crude oil, etc. because most of them probably figure they'll be dead by the time any of this happens. I likely will not be though, so Generation Y NEEDS to employ the assistance of the Baby Boomers in order to use their knowledge, wisdom, and expertise to start paving the path to correct some of these issues. It concerns me that so few people honestly give a damn about the issues I've been broaching because most would rather put ear plugs in, stick their heads in the sand, and sing "Shiny, Happy People" by REM. Pretending a looming problem doesn't exist won't just make it disappear (contrary to a funny South Park episode!)
So basically people are wrong to want something better for their kids? Tell that to all the oil barons, car makers, inventors and entrepreneurs from the past who passed down their wealth and patents/property/ideas to their decendants. Those born into wealth have a better lifestyle fought and bought by their ancestors and they started the "bigger is better" boom. This flocking to "cheaper" areas has been happening for decades, if not centuries. The good thing about America is if you work hard, you can provide a better life for your kids than you had. Isn't that the whole point? If everyone stayed where they were born and weren't ever able to work for more we'd have China or India before the emergence of their middle class. If you were born poor, you stayed poor, no matter how hard you worked, how smart you were or how good a person you were.
Why shouldn't we be willing to pay a premium for our kids to go to the best schools? I mean, American is far behind other countries as far as education, so if we want to survive, shouldn't we be willing to do what it takes to ensure our country can at least show up to the arena, let alone compete?
I don't live in an expensive neighborhood, drive a fancy car (I've had the same vehicle for 9 years and plan to drive it until the wheels literally fall off), or pay for my child to go to a fancy school, but I don't harbor any ill feelings for those who do. To each his/her own. I will buy a house later this year and while I don't live in a cookie-cutter neighborhood, I think my area is very nice (and within biking distance of a shopping center and a few restaurants and grocery stores) and it suits me. It's not flashy in any way and while it's more than I had as a child (my parents didn't own a home until I was a senior in high school; my dad was in the Air Force), I'm happy I can show my child something more than I had. I have raised a well-rounded, grounded child who understands that everything we have is because I work hard for it. I also teach her that material things can be taken away at any moment but how she treats people will last long after her life is over.
So maybe, just maybe, the people you are thinking of never took the time to teach their kids the simple things in life and what being a good person is all about. That's too bad, but it's not because they have money, it's because they didn't do right by their kids. If you need proof, compare Donald Trump's kids to Paris Hilton. Ivanka and Donald, Jr. work for a living. Sure they work for their dad, but they had to start from the bottom and work their way up and their dad doesn't subsidize their income. Paris' dad pays her to go to parties.
I'm interested in seeing what will happen when housing in the triangle is three or even four times more expensive than equivalent sized homes in the older Northeastern cities like Pittsburgh, Buffalo, Syracuse, Rochester, Erie, PA. It's is already almost there.
The sprawling nature of development here and the growth pains of mass migration will surely continue to impact Quality of Life. Also, there will be more and more of a desire to live in walkable villages or neighborhoods within a city. Most of the places where that is possible in the triangle are newish developments built as suburban enclaves. I know about Watts in Durham, but I'm sorry $400,000 for a three bedroom near downtown Durham is insane.
I personally like southern culture and Carolina and barbeque and lightening storms and do not much like northern culture or northern accents, so it would be tough getting me to move to these areas. But for someone who likes a good Cannoli or real italian food or real bagels or whatever it seems like some of those beautiful old refurbished houses in Buffalo that are like 3200 sq ft. for $250,000 and look like English cottages or Wattle and Daub palaces would start luring people back.
Of course you have snow in Buffalo and grey skies in Pittsburgh, So the weather I'm sure is a HUGE factor. But a city like Buffalo, from an outsiders perspective, that was once a thriving city built up for twice the present population with a current median home price of $60,000 seems like an attractive option. Granted, I have never lived up north, nor do I want to. But have traveled all over the place up there and it's pretty nice and CHEAP these days. Anyway, I know people follow the hype and that is that North Carolina is the golden land, but I wonder if people spend enough time looking around for golden opportunities in their own backyards.
These are some of the sentiments I found on City Data that argue my point.
It isn't "already almost 4 times as expensive" to live in Raleigh than those cities, but it is for sure more expensive there (at least for the "bulk" or "meat" of the housing market). I can't speak for all of the aforementioned cities; but living in suburban Rochester right now...I can say the "everyone must go south" sentiment is already starting to change. There are a surprisingly high number of "boomerangs" here; who have moved away and moved back, myself included. Even with the undoubtedly outraged property taxes the cost of living is now lower here than in the triangle (and I assume Charlotte as well) and the job market isn't really any better down there right now either (admitedly when the national economy starts to turn around this would very will change). Granted this area is considered a very big "exception" to the rustbelt rule because we were never saw the huge fallout of the steel industry collapse in the 70's and 80's like Pittsburgh, Buffalo, and Erie did still have a much higher percentage of white-collar professionals than most other interior northeast cities. People here still complain about the winter weather and the high property taxes but the whole "it's just too expenisve to live here and i have to go south to afford what I want" just isn't true anymore. Ironically enough because more and more people from the other part of NYS have moved down there to make it less affordable. For people who have moved back or reconsidered a move down in the first place that have kids the school's are also a big "no go" factor because of reassignment and year round issues; also brought on by increased growth.
The Triangle area is a very nice place and it does have a high quality of life; but there is no doubt that it is changing. For some people that change is a positive thing, for others its not. It is just fairly naive for many people moving there to think that it will always be the same and never face any of the issues that thier current hometowns do.
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