What IS the solution of Wake schools then? (Raleigh: home, magnet schools)

[JViello]

Originally Posted by Francois

But what's relevant is how much the school actually "saves" when a student leaves. In a district of "N" students, it is most certainly NOT "1/N". Much of the cost of educating students is in fixed costs, such as land and property for the building, air conditioning and heating costs, human resources, buses, etc. One student leaving a public school will not affect ANY of these costs, so a voucher actually adds cost to the bottom line. It is only if there are enough students who leave that the school can lay off teachers, bus drivers, and other personnel that a "real" cost savings is realized by students going elsewhere. The variable cost of one student is quite small--maybe some textbooks and lunchroom materials. You have to have large numbers of students leaving for vouchers to actually SAVE the public schools money, and if that is happening, there is more in play than vouchers can cure.

Well that may be true, but then you have to ask how much of "per student" funding goes to hard costs? 30%? 50%? 60%? Even if it's a wash, the school will not be losing money - and I thought there was an overcrowding problem? Give parents a choice for private vs public is not a bad thing to help that problem as well.

If said school is losing students by the droves, is it because they are getting a worse or better education somewhere else and excersizing the right to "free choice? Right.

If said "public school" can't pull it together and ends up downsized because of it, will parents continue to send their kids there when they have a choice? No.

In the end are the kids afforded the option to the best education they can get or not?

It's about continuing to feed a bloated monster with no accountability IMO. I say give people a choice, let the school districts earn their funding instead of being entitled to it.

Originally Posted by Francois

People who don't have children at all are not "burdening the system", so according to the above "logic", anyone paying taxes who does not have children in the public schools, including those with no children at all, is entitled to a tax credit from the county. Sounds good to me!

Yes, I agree. It DOES happen like that in other parts of the nation. For instance where I live now we have "tax districts". If I am not served by a certain new fire house, my tax rate is lower. If I do not have public sewer and water, my tax rate is lower. (Lower this case is really a joke because it's extortion at every level...but work with me here. )

We do NOT do the same for schools and students/parents and it's a shame.

I don't know how feasable that would be for Wake County, but it's a pretty good idea in my book.

[NYer]

Originally Posted by JViello

We do NOT do the same for schools and students/parents and it's a shame.

I don't know how feasable that would be for Wake County, but it's a pretty good idea in my book.

Those kids are the ones who will care for us in our dotage, police our streets, cut our hair, and perform our heart surgeries.
I sure hope they are well educated and I will gladly pay my share, as I have before I had kids & will continue to do so after my last one has left the system.

[RDSLOTS]

Originally Posted by Minier

How does the very valid problem of shuffling kids around like a deck of cards get resolved without creating "ghetto schools" for the poor kids? Definitely the redistricting has not been the right solution as it creates so much chaos and instability for all children involved, but throwing money at the poor neighborhood schools has never been an adequate solution either. I struggle with thinking creatively about how the schools of primarily F&R children that would result if/when neighborhood school zones are established could be helped to maintain quality in their schools. Wondering what others are thinking in terms of solutions to THAT problem (which is one that plagues most of the rest of the nation).

Retired teacher, I have been pondering this myself, and don't profess to have the answers, but do have quite a few questions, too.

I suppose I have been a proponent of doing away with the busing because I thought, obviously in my naivety, that we had achieved some semblance of diversity in many (not all, I know) of our neighborhoods. Perhaps I am deluded, living just outside RTP, where my neighborhood is quite diverse.

I've long thought that an hour's bus ride to, and from, school is time that could be so much better spent. Other than 'socialization,' what exactly is accomplished along the learning curve on that twice daily ride? I'd also like to see a breakdown of what it costs a school system to run buses like this -- in drivers' salaries, vehicle maintenance and maintenance staff, cost of replacing buses, fuel consumption and costs (both monetarily and environmentally). I don't understand why that money, and I'd surmise it has to be a lot when Wake was stressing-over increased fuel costs not being allocated in the budget, couldn't be better spent?

During my tenure, I encountered many students who were resentful of being bused, themselves, to schools with with they did not identify, and thought that with neighborhood schools came a sense of place, and pride. Even as a student, myself, I remember thinking how sad that some of my classmates were spending the time that they did on a school bus. I was easily getting to class on-time in the mornings, walking maybe 1/2 mile to my school(s), and at a time when we could go home for lunch, loved being able to do that. I was also easily home in the afternoons in about 20-30 minutes, and all the better for the exercise.

It seems to me that money could be spent on what it would take to make the schools equal, and NOT spent on 'lip service,' but in valid programs and services. Such programs have to be those that the students actually see the value of, and 'buy into,' themselves, and may even vary from facility to facility. If School A draws from a wealthier suburb, it might be awarded less of a system's allocation per pupil, while another, poorer or disadvantaged school, might be awarded the 'lion's share' to put the two on equal footing. The hour devoted to the bus ride in the a.m., and the hour ride in the p.m., could be better allocated to study time, one-on-one tutoring, language skills, even exercise to address childhood obesity, and the like. Wouldn't the money be there for such?

Money could be awarded to staff with proven track records at addressing the needs of more-disadvantaged students -- not given to teachers who wanted better pay for agreeing to teach at a lower-performing schools, but who had demonstrated strengths in working in such an environment and who had vested interests in the students, their families, and the school. Again, I may be very naive, but I also think it might contribute to a healthy competitiveness between schools? Or would we see more of the 'crabs-in-the-bottom-of-the-bucket' pulling others down, and low student morale? Can sociologists explain this phenomena for me? Why wouldn't some, most, all rise to higher expectations?

I do know, from my own tenure, that numbers could be used to warrant, justify, explain anything -- and if a % failure or success rate is spread-out across a school system, one might see only a small % at a specific facility, but among the poorer-performing student population, the overall rate is still the same. . . so, is spreading those students across the system actually better, or just different-looking? Is it truly advantageous to spread these children around the system and into different schools, and an advantage for whom, or what? The numbers are the same, aren't they? Has busing really achieved what it was set out to achieve, and are we any worse off for trying something different, if based on sound educational, and social, principles and practices?

If the schools in Charlotte have truly failed in the neighborhood schools concept, what have they done wrong? and could Wake benefit from correcting those mistakes? These are some of the issues, topics, things I'd like to see addressed. Some of this, I can't help but think, too, is a fear of change -- humans are guilty of wanting things to stay the same for comfort's sake.

[jamangirl]

But shouldn't they have a better defined vision and plan before they dismantle the school system? You can not easily go back. If Charlotte schools truly failed the neighbor school attempt, one would think that the new school board would truly have the kids needs in the utmost forefront of their minds and would try not to repeat the same mistakes. I am not in Wake County because all this scared me years ago but I think these decisions being made will have far reaching impact beyond the education of the kids. Do even one of the school board members have a child that will need to be redistricted to what will be one of the high poverty schools?

[TuborgP]

Agggh as the picture on Burns and neighborhood schools begins to clear/clarify we now get to what may be the real soap opera for the new board and that is the budget. Revenue is tight, money from state sources shrinking and we have a new board to establish new priorities with the existing management team. Will they concur? Will they really be advocates for educational spending or will they reflect the interests of some of the special interest groups that supported and mentored them. Will Wake have a board that advocates cuts in education as part of a broader effort for fiscal conservatism? Will Wake have a board that advocates for finding increased areas of revenue to maintain and increase education funding? Stay tuned!

[NYer]

Originally Posted by RDSLOTS

... Perhaps I am deluded, living just outside RTP, where my neighborhood is quite diverse.

There is so much talk on the N & O blogs and other places about the white suburban newcomers who are pushing for resegregation. However, my experience of the new subdivisions is that they are incredibly diverse (racially) and are located a stone's throw from economic diversity. Here in northern Wake, you can see trailer homes and apartment buildings right by Wakefield, Heritage and the smaller subdivisions. North Raleigh seems more white, as well as many of the old line Raleigh neighborhoods.

Originally Posted by RDSLOTS

During my tenure, I encountered many students who were resentful of being bused, themselves, to schools with with they did not identify, and thought that with neighborhood schools came a sense of place, and pride.

I've seen it as a parent volunteer. The bussing works only if the student & family want to be there. I think the schools in the less desireable neighborhoods should be magnets. Thousands of middle & upper class kids would jump at the chance to attend.
We could also use more vocational education instead of feeding every kid the fantasy that he or she is bound for a PhD. It would be great for kids to graduate ready for a viable career instead of having a mediocre report card that prepares them to struggle in a community college before dropping out.

Originally Posted by RDSLOTS

It seems to me that money could be spent on what it would take to make the schools equal, and NOT spent on 'lip service,' but in valid programs and services.

The elephant in the room is: no matter how much $ is thrown at a mostly-minorityschool, hardly any teacher will want to teach there for long, and the achievment will not be there. It won't be equal. We can debate why that is, but, if I was wrong about that, would we be having that argument? Yes there are some people who will say, "Oh, that is an awful school -it is 97% white and Asian" but that is not really seen a a problem to be solved, is it?

Originally Posted by RDSLOTS

Can sociologists explain this phenomena for me? Why wouldn't some, most, all rise to higher expectations?

I spent most of my career working with high risk youth. The #1 influence on any kid is his or her home environment. That is the prism through which we all judge the world. Some of us can rise above humble circumstances, and can envision a better life, and some just cannot.

Originally Posted by RDSLOTS

Is it truly advantageous to spread these children around the system and into different schools, and an advantage for whom, or what? The numbers are the same, aren't they? Has busing really achieved what it was set out to achieve, and are we any worse off for trying something different, if based on sound educational, and social, principles and practices?

It's good for businesses if the system looks like it is working.

[Green Irish Eyes]

Originally Posted by NYer

I think the schools in the less desireable neighborhoods should be magnets. Thousands of middle & upper class kids would jump at the chance to attend.

Let me preface this by saying that I'm all for magnet schools. However, the magnet students need to be fully integrated (no pun intended) into the rest of the school population. Otherwise, while the school might look diverse on paper, in reality it would be two distinctly different groups of students who just happen to be in the same building at the same time but who never interact with each other. To me, that's not "diversity."

[TuborgP]

Originally Posted by Dark of the Moon

Let me preface this by saying that I'm all for magnet schools. However, the magnet students need to be fully integrated (no pun intended) into the rest of the school population. Otherwise, while the school might look diverse on paper, in reality it would be two distinctly different groups of students who just happen to be in the same building at the same time but who never interact with each other. To me, that's not "diversity."

Yes you are right but the test scores of the school will be good and that is what counts in so many ways. Schools and their administrators can get national recognition.

[J_Lurk]

In my opinion, the reason the new board got voted in had very little to do with busing. It had everything to do with redistricting. And the redistricting is not going to go away. In the last few years, Wake County has been opening 3-6 new schools a year. That does cause redistricting. However, people have chosen to attribute the redistricting to the diversity policy rather than to the massive growth the area has seen.

86.6% of students are assigned to a school within 5 miles of their home. 90% are within 6 miles. WCPSS: Demographics Data Center (http://www.wcpss.net/demographics/distance/index.html - broken link) Wake County contains 832 square miles, so anytime someone claims there is busing "across the county," I figure they just don't know how big the county is.

And in any case, I have no patience with this moaning about an hour on the bus. I rode the bus 1 1/2 hours each way in to my closest high school in the early 80s (It was Millbrook, and back then North Raleigh had dirt roads). If I'd driven it directly, then it would have taken 25 minutes. My parents, like a lot of parents today, considered the time childcare that they did not have to pay for. I spent the time doing homework. Buses meander, and this was not and is not an urban area. If you want to walk to school, then buy a house that is walking distance from a school. I don't know anyone in a walk zone that is assigned to a different school.

The amount of classic busing in Wake County is actually very small. Wake County achieves most of its diversity through its magnet program. 45% of students that choose their schools have chosen one more than 5 miles from their home. They choose to be there and they are involved and enthusiastic participants. Ask anyone whose kids are at Wiley, or Washington, or Conn, or any of the stellar magnet programs.

The concern of many of us who have a long relationship with Wake County schools is that this new board will find there is no way to achieve "neighborhood schools" without eliminating the magnet program. If everyone goes back to their "neighborhood" then there will be no open spaces for magnet students. And that will be a great loss to the community. And at the end of the day, assuming this whole debacle doesn't slow migration to the area, there still will be a lot of redistricting.

[theS5]

Originally Posted by Dark of the Moon

Let me preface this by saying that I'm all for magnet schools. However, the magnet students need to be fully integrated (no pun intended) into the rest of the school population. Otherwise, while the school might look diverse on paper, in reality it would be two distinctly different groups of students who just happen to be in the same building at the same time but who never interact with each other. To me, that's not "diversity."

Correct, true diversity comes when people of different races, similar economic circumstances and values attend the same school...aka neigborhood schools.

You can not forcefully integrate children, it does not work.

The change needs to come from within the community and homes of the economically disadvantaged. Instead of spending money on bussing, paying teachers more to teach in lower performing schools etc.. why not allow a community activist, leader, educator to open a Charter School. Make the school a place that the children in the community aspire to attend. Make it a haven from difficulties that they may be facing at home. Give them hope for their future.

None of this can be acheived by forced integration. It might make the economically advantaged feel better about themselves, but the results are poor.