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Where does it say in the article that anyone is trying to live, work, shop, and play ONLY among other gays? When you're ~5% of the population, that is pretty much impossible, even in San Francisco. ALL gay people mingle with heterosexuals every day, every hour of their lives, for the most part. But to have one small, concentrated area of 3-4 blocks where a higher percentage of gay people live than is customary is suddenly "us vs them"? Get real.
Lots of senior citizens prefer to live in "55+" communities--does this mean they have an "us vs them" mentality and "only want to live and shop among other seniors"? Lots of transplants moving to NC ask about neighborhoods where lots of other transplants live, so they will be around people like themselves. Is this "us vs them"? Do we presume that they will only ever want to work, live, and shop among other transplants? Lots of people come in here asking where the neighborhoods are with more Jews--is this "self-segregation", or simply being around people who have something in common with you? Does the fact that a lot of people from India all live in certain areas in Morrisville/Cary mean they are refusing to integrate themselves into society at large?
Any group that is a minority of the general population likes to have SOME times when they can "let their hair down" among their own kind. In the case of gay people, many who have experience outright ostracism and discrimination (unlike Seniors or transplants, usually) and may have actually experienced violence simply for being gay. They are allowed to choose to live in a small area of town where there are higher percentages of gay people (hint: even in the Warehouse district, there probably isn't more than 30-40% gay people living there, STILL a minority, but much less so than anywhere else) if they feel more comfortable there, just as seniors are allowed to live in 55+ housing if that is their preference. It doesn't mean they will "never ever ever" interact with younger people, just that maybe they like having neighbors who have similar lifeviews and experiences as themselves.
The VAST majority of gay people live in "regular" neighborhoods, just as do the vast majority of seniors, racial minorities, Jews, and Indians. But people have their reasons for preferring to be around folks of their own kind, sometimes, particularly if they have experienced hostility or violence (as many gay people have, even in 2010) in other environments. I am guessing that you are not a minority of any sort if you have such a difficult time comprehending why this is so. It is not a personal insult to heterosexuals if a few hundred GLBT people choose to live in an area of downtown that has a high concentration of them, as I guarantee these same people interact, work, shop, and play with heterosexuals every day of their lives.
I'm sorry, but it's just plain absurd to make the jump from "there is a small part of town with a lot of gay businesses where many gay people are choosing to live" to "all these gay people never want to see a straight person from sunup to sundown as long as they live".
Francios,What you are describing are called ghettos,at least they were for a hundred years in NYC.It was a bad thing.I think that is the point.
Francois post is the only one making any sense whatsoever in this thread so far.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Francois
Where does it say in the article that anyone is trying to live, work, shop, and play ONLY among other gays? When you're ~5% of the population, that is pretty much impossible, even in San Francisco. ALL gay people mingle with heterosexuals every day, every hour of their lives, for the most part. But to have one small, concentrated area of 3-4 blocks where a higher percentage of gay people live than is customary is suddenly "us vs them"? Get real.
Lots of senior citizens prefer to live in "55+" communities--does this mean they have an "us vs them" mentality and "only want to live and shop among other seniors"? Lots of transplants moving to NC ask about neighborhoods where lots of other transplants live, so they will be around people like themselves. Is this "us vs them"? Do we presume that they will only ever want to work, live, and shop among other transplants? Lots of people come in here asking where the neighborhoods are with more Jews--is this "self-segregation", or simply being around people who have something in common with you? Does the fact that a lot of people from India all live in certain areas in Morrisville/Cary mean they are refusing to integrate themselves into society at large?
Any group that is a minority of the general population likes to have SOME times when they can "let their hair down" among their own kind. In the case of gay people, many who have experience outright ostracism and discrimination (unlike Seniors or transplants, usually) and may have actually experienced violence simply for being gay. They are allowed to choose to live in a small area of town where there are higher percentages of gay people (hint: even in the Warehouse district, there probably isn't more than 30-40% gay people living there, STILL a minority, but much less so than anywhere else) if they feel more comfortable there, just as seniors are allowed to live in 55+ housing if that is their preference. It doesn't mean they will "never ever ever" interact with younger people, just that maybe they like having neighbors who have similar lifeviews and experiences as themselves.
The VAST majority of gay people live in "regular" neighborhoods, just as do the vast majority of seniors, racial minorities, Jews, and Indians. But people have their reasons for preferring to be around folks of their own kind, sometimes, particularly if they have experienced hostility or violence (as many gay people have, even in 2010) in other environments. I am guessing that you are not a minority of any sort if you have such a difficult time comprehending why this is so. It is not a personal insult to heterosexuals if a few hundred GLBT people choose to live in an area of downtown that has a high concentration of them, as I guarantee these same people interact, work, shop, and play with heterosexuals every day of their lives.
I'm sorry, but it's just plain absurd to make the jump from "there is a small part of town with a lot of gay businesses where many gay people are choosing to live" to "all these gay people never want to see a straight person from sunup to sundown as long as they live".
Bottom line is,I think the subject matter of the original post is a bit controversial by nature.You can't expect to put that out there(no pun intended)and not illicit some spirited responses.
It should not matter where a group of people live. Acceptance should not be predicated on knowing the person. They are human beings too, and like anyone else, its the personality that should make you like/ dislike that person, rather than race, looks or orientation.
In our world where we have information at our beck and call, no longer can we say that acceptance grows only if I live close to such and such person.
There is no need to be scared of any one group, people!
Samdan, I am aware of "ghettos" in the larger cities (which include Chinatown, Koreatown, etc). However, we are talking about an area of maybe 3-4 blocks, in this case, that is mostly not residential. The fact that there happen to be some condo building there where there happen to be higher-than-usual percentages of gay people living does not mean it is a "ghetto" along the lines of Chinatown, since even in those condo buildings such as Dawson on Morgan or Park Devereaux, there are still more heterosexuals living there than gay people, so how can you call a concentration of maybe 30% a "ghetto"?
Is Cary a "ghetto" for Northern transplants?
Also, consider the fact that downtown condo living in general probably appeals to gay singles and couples more than to married couples who plan to have children and certainly than those who do have children. If such a condo building is on the same street where Raleigh's gay bars are and someone is interested in the club scene, it is natural that they would move there where one can walk home instead of driving. This has nothing to do with "ghettoization" nor with deliberately segregating oneself from heterosexuals. After all, don't people come on this board every single week asking where there are neighborhoods with lots of kids? Is that "ghettoization" of families with kids just because lots of them live in the same neighborhood?
Another aspect I forgot to mention earlier is that gay people outside this area have preconceived notions about what North Carolina might be like--go to any gay (or liberal) gathering in the North or West and mention NC, and instantly someone will say "Oh, that's the state that elected Jesse Helms". The fact that Helms was last elected over a decade ago and is in fact dead now is irrelevant to many, who remember only the hatred towards gay people he was known for spreading. So if you are a gay person who's transplanting to NC and not so familiar with the demographics in the Triangle at large, it is natural to look for an area you know is likely to be welcoming (recall how frequently we get inquiries about "Will I and my partner be accepted in the Triangle?"), and if you are the "downtown, urban" type as well, then it is natural to gravitate to an area where lots of other gay people already live, so you will know that you won't have neighbors who judge or harass you (I know, and many of you know, that in the Triangle, most people are fine with gay neighbors, but someone moving here for the first time, having heard all sorts of things about homophobia in the South, wouldn't necessarily know that). Again, it's no different than the Jewish people (probably also having preconceived notions about what the South thinks of Jews) sometimes come in and ask for neighborhoods with significant Jewish populations. Most folks who are white, upper-middle class, heterosexual Gentiles cannot ever really see the world from the standpoint of a minority, particularly with the (obsolete in many places) reputation the South has for being racist/homophobic/anti-Semitic. I believe the old saying about not judging someone until you've walked amlie in their moccasins is applicable here.
Finally, in regard to the original article posted by SunnyKayak, note that it is from Q-Notes, NC's gay/lesbian newspaper, so naturally they are going to be more heavy-handed on the "gay" aspects than you would find in a mainstream newspaper, and in fact probably exaggerate the facts. "Specialty population" newspapers are not always known for their even-handed journalism, and tend to cater to the substrata of population who are their readers. In fact, gay people live and thrive all over Raleigh, especially the downtown part, and I don't know if the concentration of GLBT folks living in the Warehouse District is in fact any higher than in Oakwood, Mordecai, or other condominium projects in downtown Raleigh. Downtown living has always been appealing to folks who don't have children, and of course that's a lot more likely in same-sex households.
Bottom line is,I think the subject matter of the original post is a bit controversial by nature.You can't expect to put that out there(no pun intended)and not illicit some spirited responses.
And what is wrong with spirited discussions? They are had regarding all issues that one person or another doesn't regard as "the norm". That is how people learn and grow, and hopefully accept other views besides their own.
I will be moving to FV in 5 weeks, and am happy to know the Triangle area, for the most part, is accepting of my lifestyle. I am thrilled to know there will be an area for me. I lived in Dallas for 30+ years which had a very large GLBT population and a large area where most of the clubs, shops and restaurants were located, along with a residential area. I could go there and be myself without being harassed or tormented by others who didn't "approve". In fact, several of the clubs and restaurants had a very large heterosexual clientele.
Fast forward to today. I live outside Great Falls, MT where there is no GLBT population to speak of. There are no clubs, restaurants, or stores that would make up an area, even of 1 block. There is a MCC church, but its very small with a very small congregation. People are very closeted here, and I have been so very uncomfortable, to the point I don't come out to anyone. Its been a very lonely experience.
That being said, I can't wait to get to NC, and start living my life again!
A place that two guys & two girls can walk down the street and
not deal with the stares
i figured that would be nearly everywhere, but i guess that unfortunately isn't the case. i'm coming from urban massachusetts, so maybe it's different. i just didn't get the feeling that raleigh/durham/chapel hill were particularly intolerant of or unaccustomed to gay people
also, i hope my post didn't come off homophobic. it's just the opposite. i have a number of close gay friends, and i couldnt see any of them being like "ooh, i want to move to the gay district." they do the same things my straight friends do, other than that they are attracted to people of the same gender.
Last edited by GucciLittlePiggie; 03-24-2010 at 01:16 PM..
i figured that would be nearly everywhere, but i guess that unfortunately isn't the case. i'm coming from urban massachusetts, so maybe it's different. i just didn't get the feeling that raleigh/durham/chapel hill were particularly intolerant of or unaccustomed to gay people
You are correct in that last statement, but again, someone just moving here from somewhere else may have a preconceived idea of what the area is going to be like, just because it's in a Southern state. And, while people here generally are live-and-let-live or at least keep their opinions to themselves, actually holding hands with your same-sex partner in public will almost certainly get stares and comments. A lot of folks are OK with gay people "in the abstract", but seeing any kind of affection suddenly gets under their skin and the "stop shoving it down our throats" comments start, even though heterosexuals could display exactly the same affection and go completely unnoticed.
And, there are still protestors every year at the Pride festival and the Gay/Lesbian Film Festival, and some venomous letters to the editor every now and then, so definitely some hard social conservatism in the area if you scratch the surface. If someone is still in the process of coming to terms with his/her orientation, and/or isn't familiar with this area, there are still plenty of scary folks to be found, and knowing there was at least one certain small part of town where gay people live openly and unharassed would be a draw to someone without much else to go on, who was relocating here.
Steering a bit back to the O.P.....
I don't think this is all about sexual orientation. I think it's more about lifestyle choices. And, when I say lifestyle choice, I am not talking about sexual orientation. To me, that's NOT a lifestyle choice. Rather, I am talking about where and how one chooses to live. Living in a single family house in the burbs near a park is a lifestyle choice. Living in the city in an efficiency apartment is a lifestyle choice. etc., etc., etc.
That said, one can identify strong correlations between said lifestyle choices and the audiences that typically choose them. Typically, but certainly not always, families choose single family homes near a park in the burbs. Typically, but certainly not always, singles and childless couples choose apartment living in the city. See where I am coming from here?
Now, let's say that I want to open a children's boutique selling cute little clothes and toys. I have two choices to locate my business. The first choice is in a new strip center near hundreds of moderate to upscale single family houses near a highly sought after elementary school. The second choice is on the first floor of a downtown multi-use high rise. With everything being objectively equal, where would I put my store? Now, let's say that I want to open a gay book store. I also have the same two location choices to open my business, where do I put my store? Well, if I were that business owner, I know what I'd choose. My chances for success are greater where the lifestyle of my audience can reach me and vice versa. This does NOT mean that there is any gay or straight segregation going on. However, one can certainly make an argument that this type of "sorting" is more related to the other conditions or social stratification that exist. Age, income level, couple status, children, politics, etc. are probably more related to where one chooses to live than ones sexual orientation. Personally, I think that having children and income are bigger factors in determining where one lives. And, naturally, I think that almost everyone is looking for a place where they will "feel" like part of a community. So, naturally, people look for threads within a community to which they can attach themselves. Young couples with small kids are often looking for neighbhorhoods where there are other small children with whom their children can play. Retired couples are often looking for the exact opposite because their kid days are over. Singles are looking to be in places where they have access to other singles so that they don't feel like a fifth wheel.
That all said, I have yet to see any housing project in Raleigh where their marketing material specifically targets gay people. Brochures and pamphlets are not gunning for any subset of their overall market. They are targetting ALL singles, ALL childless couples, All empty nesters, etc. While they might advertise their product in a gay publication, they realize that their success is based on inclusiveness within their target market. In the end, it's just that their market typically contains a higher percentage of gay people than does the market for the typical new single family neighbhorhood in the suburbs.
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